Author Topic: So, nothing here about inauguration protests or the women's march?  (Read 1985 times)

beatdaddio

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Not many posts in general here recently, but I'm especially surprised to not see any talk about TST related actions or participation in protests or marches.  I'm going to the march here in Portland tomorrow, and I'll be wearing some feminist satanist badges, but OTOH I don't plan to jump in front of any news cameras, or get myself arrested.  Too old and bourgeois for that.  Anyone else got plans?  Any cool banners painted, or local chapters with a marching squad?
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beatdaddio

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Re: So, nothing here about inauguration protests or the women's march?
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2017, 04:07:47 PM »
So far I haven't seen any PDX TST signage or any related left hand or dark side signage.  Granted it is an ocean of people stretching well beyond the ability to see everything.
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Lilith201

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Re: So, nothing here about inauguration protests or the women's march?
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2017, 07:24:01 PM »
I didn't go, for several reasons: 1. I've been to dozens of demonstrations, I'm over 50 and I have bad feet. 2. I prefer protests that protest something. I guess maybe the point was to protest the election of Donald Trump, but that followed the Constitution and the reality is that every election ends in someone's defeat and someone's victory. Protesting your defeat kind of looks like being a sore loser. 3. As a radical feminist, I wasn't motivated to attend a protest originally organized by someone named Bob who runs a fashion business. Hanging out with people who quote liberal catchphrases and would be befuddled by radical philosophies didn't sound like a good time to me.

Having said all that I think it was a positive event in that it showed the Trump administration and society at large that women will mobilize and can't be ignored.

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beatdaddio

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Re: So, nothing here about inauguration protests or the women's march?
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2017, 11:37:25 PM »
While I respect the age and feet, I take issue with the rest.  Trump is merely a figurehead and a representation of the complete takeover of our government by anti-feminist forces, and the resurgence of anti-feminist sentiments in our culture.  He is also symbolic of similar regressive fascistic tendencies in countries around the world.  So to sit back and say people are just being sore losers suggests to me that you either don't see what's going on, or you don't really care anymore.  Maybe you used to be an actual radical feminist a long time ago?
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Lilith201

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Re: So, nothing here about inauguration protests or the women's march?
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2017, 09:17:12 AM »
My point is that many of the people marching, not all of them of course but many, did absolutely nothing for the past 25-30 years while those antifeminist forces grew in power. The Christian Radical Right began mobilizing and gaining power in the 1980s. The Democratic Party became nothing but a tool of corporations. Reality tv shows, immensely popular, degraded women. Actual young women continued to wear high heels and in the past 10 years have increased in self-degrading behaviors including acquiescing to painful and humiliating forms of sex because men demanded it and increasingly give sexual favors to men they barely know without receiving likewise in return. Women both young and old defended pornography, despite the gross violence perpetrated against (other) women in this medium...Now all of a sudden millions of women are incensed because the inevitable product of the last 25 years, Donald Trump, was elected President. They are shocked, shocked! But how could they be shocked? Where have they been for the past 25 years?? NOW they are protesting??? Give me a break!

 I've campaigned for progressive candidates, held elected office myself (small offices), participated in numerous marches and demonstrations, lobbied public officials, etc. Very little that I did or participated in was successful, in large part because the women who now are shocked, shocked, did nothing or even opposed me for all those years.

 Most recently I worked on Bernie Sanders' campaign. Many people, mostly women, supported Hillary Clinton despite her being a sociopath out for her own gain who threw other women under the bus during her husband's Presidency. These women are now clinically depressed because their candidate, who they saw as a "feminist," lost. They also couldn't see that she was destined to be a loser, she was unelectable. If they had been involved in politics for the past decade they would have seen that she would lose. They would not have been shocked and clinically depressed by her defeat.

If this march serves to motivate women to learn more about how politics works, then it will be a good thing. My guess is that most participants will tweet their photos and go back to their lives of apathy and submission next week. But I could be wrong. I hope so.

"Ain't no burning hell."--John Lee Hooker

ClovenMischief

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Re: So, nothing here about inauguration protests or the women's march?
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2017, 01:07:24 PM »
Concurs.
Never understood protests/marches period. All people are doing is getting in the way of traffic saying, "I'm upset, I'm really upset."
But they aren't actually politically active. I thought we would wake up and be past that for 2017 as the world clearly got a kick in the face that protests aren't doing anything to the law. It annoys people rather than "awakens" them.
Living in a highly conservative state (and around the dumb ones, not the smart ones) I painfully understand their viewpoint. To them such marches have lost their novelty. They don't pay attention to them anymore. In this fast paced intel world of computers they see how many numbers the march had and they're just like, "meh" and then scroll down on tumblr to something else or click on some other clickbait.
Also, anyone who protests or walks in a march period is now labeled "Stinking Crybaby Liberal."

And in a way they are right, people need to stop whining and actually do something. To open minds we've entered a time where we have to talk to people personally, and even then they must be willing to listen. Maybe some will be affected by the visage of the march, or any protest, but relatively few. We have a community, we have a common opinion, and we have a voice, the trick is we need to use it effectively. Appoint those in your local governments that are in your favor, tear down those that hurt a portion of people like women in particular. There are times where you have to be LOUD, but that is actually pretty rare. We can do a lot more with just our computers (like petitions).

That's something I learned as a Marine Life Activist. Saying you're upset does nothing, you HAVE to go out there, do the field work, write the books, and bring it to court. You have to or nothing will change. You may lose, but at least you did something and your case/action is out there to be used by others in the future to be modified where you failed. We also had instances where protests worked, but they did better small and concentrated and took advantage of media where they could. 'Small and concentrated' seem familiar? How many Civil Rights Movement protests during Martin Luther's days do you remember that were iconic? I can remember a lot, and that's because they were planned and concentrated where they would have real effect. That's where this time has lost it's touch. The effectiveness of the protest. Marching on a bunch of anti-feminist where they finally got the anti-femininst government they wanted is not effective, their views are already set and they enjoy their power (or state of masochism if they are women).
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beatdaddio

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Re: So, nothing here about inauguration protests or the women's march?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2017, 05:30:49 PM »
Lilith, thanks very much for the thoughtful and clear follow up.  I said what I did about "used to be" because the post I was responding to had language in it that reminded me of people who sit around dismissing others without doing anything constructive themselves.  But I appreciate the points you made to clear that up.
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ClovenMischief

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Re: So, nothing here about inauguration protests or the women's march?
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2017, 06:18:30 PM »
If you thought that was an attack on your ego, you misread. It was for uplifting encouragement from someone with activist experience. I know what changes things, its why I joined TST because they actually fight the only ways that work. Petitions, engaging politicians both local and nationwide. Even light espionage and their protests are precise, concentrated and iconic.
TST is doing everything right so far.
If you're not on the same ball as their activities we all need to catch up. The "thoughts on liberals" is not my own, I simply understand what my surrounding populace mean when they grouch. Im not on either side, and dont comprehend the labels for either side to be honest.
Honestly i think its imperative to listen to the Right's criticism so we can change what isn't working, nor impressing them enough to win. To swipe the ignorance right from under their feet for calling anyone who thinks different a crybaby.Just wanted to clarify this wasn't an attack on anyone, but if one misreads it as anger sorry. Im still not good with these context things.

Lilith201

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Re: So, nothing here about inauguration protests or the women's march?
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2017, 07:31:46 PM »
Lilith, thanks very much for the thoughtful and clear follow up.  I said what I did about "used to be" because the post I was responding to had language in it that reminded me of people who sit around dismissing others without doing anything constructive themselves.  But I appreciate the points you made to clear that up.

No problem.

I think ClovenMischief had a good point, protests have to be targeted. Also TST uses Constitutional law to turn the right-wing into hypocrites. The women's movement used to do such things. Today it's too much Twittering and preaching to others about how to use politically correct language. I'm not joining any group which preaches to me about how I have to acknowledge my "white privilege" as I worked with black and hispanic people from the prison system as a counselor and the Twitterers and scolders don't know me and most of them are white twentysomethings who have never done anything about racial injustice in their lives. Also I cannot listen to those who scold about "cis" privilege which is a made-up word. The notion that people are privileged because they aren't transexual is a misuse of the word "privilege." Privilege used to refer to a status people were born with, such as being nobility or royalty and the women's movement added male gender. White privilege is also real, but it doesn't mean that much for people who are poor and uneducated and white, or who are white, poor and sick. It's just a lot of verbiage. Black Americans are privileged to be living in the US; they could be Syrians with bombs dropping on them, or Palestinians living in a virtual prison in Gaza. Again the white millenial Twitterers and scolders have done nothing about those injustices (for the most part) and frankly most can't even imagine what is going on in the rest of the world. For my own sanity I have to create some distance. Sorry for the rant.
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Benjamin T. Awesome

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Re: So, nothing here about inauguration protests or the women's march?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2017, 01:50:59 PM »
White privilege is also real, but it doesn't mean that much for people who are poor and uneducated and white, or who are white, poor and sick. It's just a lot of verbiage. Black Americans are privileged to be living in the US; they could be Syrians with bombs dropping on them, or Palestinians living in a virtual prison in Gaza. Again the white millenial Twitterers and scolders have done nothing about those injustices (for the most part) and frankly most can't even imagine what is going on in the rest of the world. For my own sanity I have to create some distance. Sorry for the rant.
A white person saying white privilege doesn't mean that much for people who are poor and uneducated and white is like a man saying misogyny isn't a big deal because he has a low-paying job and makes a lot less money than some women out there. The point with both is they are systemic. A given white person may be less economically privileged than a given black person, and a given man may be less economically privileged than a given woman, but that's irrelevant to the larger issue of systemic privilege. If you take two people of the same economic level, a black person is more likely to get a jaywalking ticket than a white person at the exact same crosswalk, and is more likely to get pulled over by the police and harassed in the exact same neighborhood driving the exact same car. These are real things that black people deal with daily.

I think everyone acknowledges Americans are luckier than Syrians when it comes to not having bombs dropped on us, or luckier than Africans in worn-torn regions because our pre-pubescent children aren't being forced to be soldiers in blood diamond wars and engage in murder. Asking someone to acknowledge white privilege is not an act of dismissing your own privilege at the same time; that's a non-sequitur.

Regarding your overall point in this thread, I hear you. Some protest is real. Some is theater. We all have our own ways of resisting oppression and, if someone didn't show up at a given protest or march or action, you can't really judge them on that alone.

Lilith201

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ClovenMischief

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Re: So, nothing here about inauguration protests or the women's march?
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2017, 09:22:21 PM »
Love the article, well written. Though I have questions for a non reporter source, from a TST members voice. Questions I should have asked in the beginning.
Considering I am still completely unaware of what the point of marches (in the modern day) are for. I've only heard the Right's side on this, as well as the COS members disdain for them, and even some White Nationalists, so I have no idea what makes a march or protest in a large scale so special except that the only ones who think it's special is the Left. I guess that's really where the problem lies, it only matters to the Left, they are so proud of it, but the Right's just like, "woosies."

What is a march and protest to you?
Why does one join it?
What does it do politically?
What does it do law-wise?
Do you consider yourself Liberal? If not, what political faction are you? Or if you want that anonymous you can just state that you are IN a faction, or if not then you are NOT in one, or that you are not in one in particular but still politically aware/active.
Whose attention is it trying to garner? Whose heart are they trying to open? The crowd who in swarm can change the law, or the people already in power? Other Leftists, or Right wingers?

The Right:
>Accuses it as simply self gratification of one's own ego.
>Think it does nothing to actually physically change the way people are treated (or physically change the law). They actually encourage Liberals keep doing "nothing" so they don't actually do anything REAL to the laws they are setting in place. True story, they really talk about this.
>Some literally translate it the same as I did, people obnoxiously getting in other faces simply to scream "I'm upset, I'm really upset."
>And then there's the terrible few who don't believe what these people are fighting for is even real.
>They ALSO don't want anyone to peaceful protest because they don't want anyone to protest at all. But that's not exactly all the case, the Right uses violence to get their point, or to stamp the obnoxious in their path out by their position of power, historically it's just what they do. So the only way to get across to some is to respond with violence or power. To do otherwise is ignored and considered "weak."
>Many are FOR what the marches or protests are against.
>As stated earlier it simply doesn't impress them. (which is why I asked the last question)

What can you prove wrong about these opinions or in general what do you think of them?

I'd like to bring your responses up next time I talk to my peers civilly about politics (which is often). We've converged on a lot of topics, but none annoys me more than just seeing them scream "Look at those Liberals being babies that they aint gettin their way!" every time they see a protest or march on TV.

beatdaddio

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Re: So, nothing here about inauguration protests or the women's march?
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2017, 12:27:48 AM »
When I was young, I went to protests because it seemed like the right thing to do, I didn't know anything more constructive to do, and it felt cathartic.  Mostly I haven't gone to protests as an adult.  I didn't go to the protests on The Day of Patriotic Devotion (as it is now called) because I felt it would not help.  I did go to the women's march, for the following reasons:
1) My wife was going, and I wanted to support her.
2) I wanted to see who would turn out; as far as I can tell, every kind of feminist imaginable was there.  People's signs included the range of fem philosophy, including radicalism, violence, pacifism, reminders to observe and beware of racism within feminism, reminders of intersectional relation, and so on.  Absolutely no-one was befuddled, they all came together.  Even introverts, the elderly, and people with limited mobility were there.  While I didn't see W.I.T.C.H. they have posted that they were there.
3) The main reason was to be counted.  Not individually of course, but to be part of the mass that achieved far greater numbers than anything the Trump camp can muster.  Trump himself is obsessed with his ratings, and it makes him apoplectic to be made to look small or unpopular.  So the fact that the marches around the nation easily dwarfed his show is its own reward, knowing its effect on him.
3b) Silence is complicity.  I'll grant Lilith's argument that actions ahead of time speak louder than words or pink hats or selfies when it's arguably too late.  But here we are, barn door open, horse gone.  Those who are inclined to action are acting.  But if everyone else just sits quietly at home, it normalizes and validates the words and deeds of the shitmongers and racists who are currently reveling in their abusive power.  "When they came for the abortion providers I said nothing".  The fact is, this is not a case of a single horse gone from the barn, but a potentially ongoing hemorrhaging of rights and social progress.  Should the protestors call it mission accomplished after posting their Instagram pic with the pink hat?  No.  But I absolutely think there is value in openly and loudly expressing opposition to the people who want to revoke diversity and social progress.

Lastly I'll point out that there is a tautology in the right wingers being dismissive of or mocking the protests.  Of course they will put the protests down, because the protests are against them.  So there's seriously no point to trying to respond or engage with those people about their comments, it will fall on deaf ears.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2017, 12:31:12 AM by beatdaddio »
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41_6e_61

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Re: So, nothing here about inauguration protests or the women's march?
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2017, 05:19:02 PM »
Quote
"3) The main reason was to be counted.  Not individually of course, but to be part of the mass that achieved far greater numbers than anything the Trump camp can muster.  Trump himself is obsessed with his ratings, and it makes him apoplectic to be made to look small or unpopular.  So the fact that the marches around the nation easily dwarfed his show is its own reward, knowing its effect on him."

I think this is the most important thing. I wasn't aware there was going to be a march in my state, but there was one. I would have gone if I knew about it.

ClovenMischief

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Re: So, nothing here about inauguration protests or the women's march?
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2017, 01:02:17 PM »
When I was young, I went to protests because it seemed like the right thing to do, I didn't know anything more constructive to do, and it felt cathartic.  Mostly I haven't gone to protests as an adult.  I didn't go to the protests on The Day of Patriotic Devotion (as it is now called) because I felt it would not help.  I did go to the women's march, for the following reasons:
1) My wife was going, and I wanted to support her.
2) I wanted to see who would turn out; as far as I can tell, every kind of feminist imaginable was there.  People's signs included the range of fem philosophy, including radicalism, violence, pacifism, reminders to observe and beware of racism within feminism, reminders of intersectional relation, and so on.  Absolutely no-one was befuddled, they all came together.  Even introverts, the elderly, and people with limited mobility were there.  While I didn't see W.I.T.C.H. they have posted that they were there.
3) The main reason was to be counted.  Not individually of course, but to be part of the mass that achieved far greater numbers than anything the Trump camp can muster.  Trump himself is obsessed with his ratings, and it makes him apoplectic to be made to look small or unpopular.  So the fact that the marches around the nation easily dwarfed his show is its own reward, knowing its effect on him.
3b) Silence is complicity.  I'll grant Lilith's argument that actions ahead of time speak louder than words or pink hats or selfies when it's arguably too late.  But here we are, barn door open, horse gone.  Those who are inclined to action are acting.  But if everyone else just sits quietly at home, it normalizes and validates the words and deeds of the shitmongers and racists who are currently reveling in their abusive power.  "When they came for the abortion providers I said nothing".  The fact is, this is not a case of a single horse gone from the barn, but a potentially ongoing hemorrhaging of rights and social progress.  Should the protestors call it mission accomplished after posting their Instagram pic with the pink hat?  No.  But I absolutely think there is value in openly and loudly expressing opposition to the people who want to revoke diversity and social progress.

Lastly I'll point out that there is a tautology in the right wingers being dismissive of or mocking the protests.  Of course they will put the protests down, because the protests are against them.  So there's seriously no point to trying to respond or engage with those people about their comments, it will fall on deaf ears.

I don't get the horse and barn stuff, I'm assuming it's some sort of analogy, but I think I got the jist of everything else just fine and brought it up with them several times over these last few workdays.

 "So there's seriously no point to trying to respond or engage with those people about their comments, it will fall on deaf ears."
It doesn't fall on deaf ears. To engage with them is crucial and healthy in understanding your own ideals, it also helps know where your strengths and weaknesses are. Where you're right, and where you are wrong. You can also sway people to your view and denied rights as I have.
And you think it doesn't fall on the Left's deaf ears when they call for actions? Like a Christian trying to tell an atheist that they should fear God. Obviously the Atheist thinks the Christian silly, but the Christian is distraught by their ignorance to something they believe to be powerful. Much like the drive and passion of the Left's need for secularism.
You understand each other, you just don't know it nor wish to see it and vice versa. When I talk to the Right, I honestly hear no difference than when I'm talking to the Left. Both are passionate, both are apathetic, both are ignorant, both are right, and both are wrong.

We are beginning to understand, it's a little, but it's a start until presented in a way we understand more. It still seems like self gratification of the ego for passionate people of the same mind, but we are beginning to see it as including more. It sounded like you believed in the march's success merely because it would upset Trump. But considering there's been marches and protests for years we agreed it was bigger than upsetting Lord Dampnut (Donald Trump anagram, pass it on). Luckily I am unique in that I have literally lived sexism, racism, and lower wage to my male peers in the workplace and even education. I can pass my experiences and they understand that the problems they saw previously only backed by statistics are real, tangible, and are happening to people they know. Again, we still don't fully understand the importance of Marches and protests that don't involve going out there and affecting the laws directly. But I think we are more sympathetic at least since there was a genuine presented case of what the march stood for.

That's how you change their mind. You make it personal. You make it someone they know. You can't just preach it, you have to prove it. That's why talking with them on a level of mutual respect and understanding is so important.