Author Topic: Help on debating "the Old Testament doesn't count"?  (Read 1067 times)

BeforeTheThrone

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Re: Help on debating "the Old Testament doesn't count"?
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2016, 11:47:16 AM »
I love how they want to though out the old testament yet the who Jesus quote of him coming to earth is in the old testament. And so is the 10 commandments. . Isaiah 7:14 says: “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”  And don't forget most Catholics will tell you original  sin is in the old testament. (yet it's not really)

If you read my explanation above, you will see that Christianity does not "throw out" the Old Testament. It just declares the Old Covenant (which is distinct from the Old Testament) obsolete. It is true that many Christians do not have the knowledge to make the distinction between Old Covenant and Old Testament, but that does not mean that they are wrong about the relevance of those rules. So the fact that the prophecies regarding the virgin birth, the coming of the Messiah, etcetera, such as the one you quoted from Isaiah, are in the Old Testament is completely irrelevant to the discussion, unless your goal is to explain to a Christian the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Testament rather than to find contradictions within their religion. If your goal is to argue against Christianity itself, then this is not the argument to use.

As for the statement about original sin (which is also not connected to the Old Covenant and is therefore also irrelevant to the discussion) not *really* being in the Bible, you are right, yet the fact that it is not in the Bible is again irrelevant to the point you seem to be trying to make. To act as if the Bible makes up the entirety of Christianity, to the exclusion of Martin Luther's influence on Protestantism, John Calvin's influence on Calvinism, or the writings of various saints and the results of conferences and such on Catholicism, is a fundamental misunderstanding of what Christianity is, and of the way religions develop and interact with their sacred texts. The writings of philosophers and theologians after the Bible was written are almost as relevant to Christianity as the Bible is, and have had nearly as much influence on their beliefs. And while the term "original sin," for example, is not used in the Old Testament, it is indeed based on writings in the Old Testament which were then interpreted and given the name of original sin. I will repeat a point I made in my original post, which I encourage you to read so you know where I am coming from later in the discussion and there is no more need to repeat points:
It is also important to realize that Christian religions do not consist entirely of the Bible, something I find many atheists, and others who argue against Christian beliefs, often forget. There is also tradition present in Christian religions, differing theologies, interpretations of the Bible, etcetera. If the Bible were the entire religion, we wouldn't have nearly as many different denominations of Christianity as we have now. A good example is the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which does decide Catholic doctrine.

While original sin may not be directly mentioned in the Bible, it still forms part of Catholic theology and interpretation of the Bible, and while it is based in the Old Testament, it is not connected to the Old Covenant, so it is not contradicted by the belief that Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant and made it obsolete.

LucasPhoenix

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Re: Help on debating "the Old Testament doesn't count"?
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2016, 12:05:29 AM »
<TL;DR>

So I was hoping that some of my fellow Satanists, more familiar with the Bible than I, could help me find verses in the New Testament that:

  • Explicitly say that the Old Testament laws are still in effect, or the stuff in the Old Testament (especially all the crazy stuff like Eden and Noah's flood) is literally true.
  • Are ethically questionable or conflict with our modern understanding of the world somehow.



I think all arguments with xtians ( or any theist religion ) can end really quick. 

First - Nothing in any book is true simply because it is in a book.  That is circular logic.  It doesn't matter what the bible says.  There has to be some sort of falsifiable evidence we can test.
Second - any one of my favorites, Hitches razor - if you can posit something with out evidence I can dismiss it with out evidence or reason.  You aren't free to believe something with out backing it up in my court.

After the first 2, MOST debates that I have engaged in go one of two ways
1. Well the universe had to come from something and that thing is god.  This statement is incredulous.  Simply because you don't have an answer doesn't mean you get to make one up.  Lets just say a god did create the universe.  How can you test that it was in fact the xtian god and not the Aztec god? How do you know it wasn't a combination of gods / goddesses that created everything?
2.  Well It's better to believe because If I'm wrong then I have nothing to lose.  This is Pascal's Wager.  Once again there is NO reason to believe in something with out evidence and even if you did you could pick a nicer guy that the god of the xtian bible. 

Best of luck

LP
Forget Jesus. The stars died so that you could be here today.

Raven3372

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Re: Help on debating "the Old Testament doesn't count"?
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2016, 02:55:05 PM »
Greetings, Well first of all as far as your comment about not wanting to read the Bible, you should read it and understand it! You need to know what they (Christians) reading and thinking! The problem is when you do confront them using the Bible they twist things around where it fits their needs and wants! They (Christians) don't always have a open mind, they are brainwashed and they think they are the true faith! You should study the Bible and find all the contradictions that the Bible has. Don't try to make them understand your belief because they don't understand. According to the Bible, "Satan"killed least people then what "God" did. It was the apostle Paul that changed things according their Bible! The Bible was written by men and it grew on people! So yeah, do your studies and see what you come up with and keep us posted on what you find!
Raven Alucard