Author Topic: Discussion: Damage control on our pursuits?  (Read 966 times)

ClovenMischief

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Discussion: Damage control on our pursuits?
« on: November 23, 2016, 10:18:48 AM »
Hopefully this thread will become an ongoing discussion not just of present political agenda pursuits and those you might think should happen yourself, but for those to come.

When it comes to our pursuits who or what are we willing to damage?
What would be our response to healing or protecting those or whatever we have unintentionally damaged?
When our message isn't perceived as we had planned, how would we go about fixing/apologizing that?
If we can foresee a negative consequence, we can use this place to brainstorm how we should prepare or combat it.

Take for example as a starter, these After School Satan Clubs. Besides the fight over Abortion and whether "fertilized egg constitutes as life" debate, the After School Satan Club presents real danger to lives that have been out of the womb for quite a while.

Personally I understand what the Temple is hoping to achieve through these clubs, it is the other side of the coin to the Good News Club. And my rebellious political self was all for it... until I happened to remember this was going to involve children. We are doing something no other Satanist is brave enough to do.
Are we to make our children martyrs?
Such practice is usually Christian and frowned upon by all. Granted we aren't telling them to die for their religion or blow themselves up, but still martyrdom can become barbaric quickly even if not in a gory sense.

Grade-school is such a troubling time for kids, we should know, we've been there. My middle school days were so traumatic I can't even recall them or any of the 'knowledge' I sat through. None of the basic math, the history, the economics, the grammar... none of it. All a black hole from emotional trauma due to students (and even sometimes teacher's) cruelty. Some of this cruelty was religious based. If I've suffered to this day because of it (basic knowledge is harder to learn when older) I wouldn't want that on any of my kids, let alone make it harder by sending them to a club with a villainized name in it.

  • I wonder, what we will do when the Christian children begin cruelly abusing those in these ASS Clubs (lovely acronym btw)? Is there a step-by-step process parents should be aware of on how to legally fight such cruelty against their children? Some might be clueless on how to combat it. Some principals use mental intimidation tactics to ease through a situation, usually leaving nothing solved, I don't want that to happen.
  • Perhaps also consider changing the name of the club? It does spell ASS, which is fucking hilarious, but to avoid martyrdom on those below adult-age personally I'd rather its title be as vague as "The Good News Club."

What are your thoughts, and on any issues you might think need this discussion?

beatdaddio

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Re: Discussion: Damage control on our pursuits?
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2016, 06:01:13 PM »
The Bad News Club, and its message: "You're all alone out there kid, there is no higher meaning, there is no master plan, and you will not be saved. Study science and live by the Golden Rule, even though all rules are arbitrary."

 :)

I can speak to the problem with personal experience.  My parents, themselves raised in religion which they then rejected, raised me as a fervent atheist.  I was told in clear language from day one that there is no god, that people who believe in god are ignorant, and that I should say so to any child or adult that asked me what religion I was.  Sure there was some backlash; there were kids who tried to put me down, and parents who didn't want me playing with their kids.  But I never got beat up, and I never experienced anything particularly harsh as a result.  If anything this clearly defined position made other kids, who were unsure what anything in their beliefs meant, respect me or avoid me or a bit of both.

In other words, I don't think the kids in ASS will suffer anything particularly bad, and any challenging experiences they do have will strengthen them for later.  They will learn how to debate, how read other people, how to de-escalate a situation, and how to protect their own feelings.  Hopefully in the class itself they will learn some critical thinking which will further assist them in those strengths.

I can see the position that kids should be protected from harm, and they shouldn't be used as pawns in a grown up game of political symbolism.  But they are also people who will grow up amongst an entire society of religious bullies and water cooler morons; they should know that, and have the tools to upend the idiocracy, for a better future.
Now more than ever.

ClovenMischief

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Re: Discussion: Damage control on our pursuits?
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2016, 10:53:40 PM »
The Bad News Club, and its message: "You're all alone out there kid, there is no higher meaning, there is no master plan, and you will not be saved. Study science and live by the Golden Rule, even though all rules are arbitrary."

Why didn't we dooooo thaaaaat?! XD lol
Even if Good News Club is just an example of the hundreds of evangelical clubs infiltrating schools, with this publicity such an obverse name as Bad News Club could have still worked. Probably would have edged the line of too negative or satirical, but at least it would have been funny.

Glad you weren't beat up. I see there are some nice schools still out there like in the movies. Mine on the other hand were rampant with physical violence, rape, and verbal abuse. I always think it's safe to assume the worst, and that other schools may have the same type of ill-behavior kids and authorities that get away with even the most violent of crimes. At my schools some of the principals (and police) were very biased and sexist, the assailants usually got away scott-free even if the victim had to be hospitalized. Through mental intimidation they always managed to blame everything on the victim, regardless of crime or gender the victim always was punished. e_e And if the parents are stupid, like mine and many others were, they believed the scary people in black suits and ties over their bruised and bleeding child sitting before them.
I mean I HOPE that's not happening at these schools where ASS is, I just assume it can happen at any school, and at any time depending on who runs the place and what they let kids get away with. I just want such abuse avoided. And knowledge of how to get around even stupid parents who may side or crumble under threats and bribery. Hence my first bullet point issue.

They will learn how to debate, how read other people, how to de-escalate a situation, and how to protect their own feelings.  Hopefully in the class itself they will learn some critical thinking which will further assist them in those strengths.

If this isn't in the curriculum it should be, can we send curriculum topics/themes ect.? If so I suggest this and other minor things like how to deal with Anxiety Attacks (because fuck safe spaces). It's important to learn sociological and psychological skills as well as science. They DO say they'll teach "reason" though that was pretty vague. I'd love to know in more detail what they are teaching/activities, after all, that was kind of the point of ASS clubs (and be able to contribute). To make people more aware of what they are exposing their children to at school.

longtail

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Re: Discussion: Damage control on our pursuits?
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2016, 12:22:55 PM »
  After reading your posts, I spent some time searching for any particular curriculum being used in the after school satan clubs, and really came up with very little. Only that there should be lessons in science, and rationality. ( Hoping someone will point to a link, as I probably missed it somewhere obvious.)This does seem rather in keeping with a group that wishes to avoid dogma and heirarchy.  I did find an interesting article by one of the litigators on the other side:  http://thefederalist.com/2016/08/04/6-things-to-know-about-the-new-after-school-satan-clubs/
   He seems to feel we are wrong to use the name of Satan to promulgate an alternative to Christianity in particular, when we do not believe in an actual Satan, and that there is plenty of religious diversity in schools already. He holds the threat of schools having to ban all clubs including the non religious ones, particularly 4h clubs and Scouts, over the readers head as a likely outcome. Acknowledging that I differ with some of us on the idea that religion should not be allowed access to schools, I think that it is better to allow everything, so that people have access to different ideas and beliefs, as christianity is already so over represented in the US as to be inescapable.  After all, each student is free to choose in what, if any, activities they will participate in.
Joyfully, Non Serviam

ClovenMischief

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Re: Discussion: Damage control on our pursuits?
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2016, 12:14:36 PM »
  After reading your posts, I spent some time searching for any particular curriculum being used in the after school satan clubs, and really came up with very little. Only that there should be lessons in science, and rationality. ( Hoping someone will point to a link, as I probably missed it somewhere obvious.)This does seem rather in keeping with a group that wishes to avoid dogma and heirarchy.  I did find an interesting article by one of the litigators on the other side:  http://thefederalist.com/2016/08/04/6-things-to-know-about-the-new-after-school-satan-clubs/
   He seems to feel we are wrong to use the name of Satan to promulgate an alternative to Christianity in particular, when we do not believe in an actual Satan, and that there is plenty of religious diversity in schools already. He holds the threat of schools having to ban all clubs including the non religious ones, particularly 4h clubs and Scouts, over the readers head as a likely outcome. Acknowledging that I differ with some of us on the idea that religion should not be allowed access to schools, I think that it is better to allow everything, so that people have access to different ideas and beliefs, as christianity is already so over represented in the US as to be inescapable.  After all, each student is free to choose in what, if any, activities they will participate in.

Overall it just looks like TST got sloppy on the whole ASS Club debacle. Letting our default condescending tone of humor creep in when it would have done so much better without (usually Lucien's humor works, just not this time). We attacked ONE evangelical club by name and legal battle when there are hundreds of evangelical clubs even worse that are creeping in schools. I thought we were pushing ASS Clubs to enlighten adults as to what their children are being exposed and enriched by in after school clubs/programs, but instead it just looks like we are pushing against GNC out of spite. I know that may not be the case, but that's what it LOOKS like to everyone.

We've been looking for a curriculum for ASS since day one. This whole time it looks as if TST never thought they'd GET this far, but they did and we're still pretty much in the dark and we've been a laughing stock for it by others for awhile. It makes us look like we weren't prepared. Something we haven't looked like in a while. We've usually had everything we need or worked for it and then BAM -- Final Presentation and the world goes crazy. But this ASS Club stuff is just lacking.

[indent]"-- literature lesson, creative learning activities, and a science lesson, etc.(Jordan Lawrence)"
I loved this article, they brought up good (negative side of the coin) points but seem to know more about ASS than what our own people have told us. :/ (why?)

Benjamin T. Awesome

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Re: Discussion: Damage control on our pursuits?
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2016, 02:04:02 PM »
It seems like you are allowing propaganda (the Federalist link) to influence your opinion of ASSC. It is a fact that ASSC arose as a response to GNC, which is by far the largest and most pervasive evangelical organization to have infiltrated American (and other) schools. Why hide that? It also seems like a win-win: either GNC and other clubs back down as a result (unlikely), or a great alternative for children whose parents don't want them to be brainwashed by evangelicals, but whose parents also would like them (for whatever reason) to participate in an after school program, emerges in the form of ASSC. Presumably, some parents absolutely are interested in this resource, because they have enrolled their children in ASSC. If TST is wrong and there is no interest among parents and children for ASSC, it will get no enrollment and go away. But, at present, there clearly is interest and some people want to take advantage of this resource.

It is ironic that the author of that Federalist piece admits to being part of the team of lawyers that enabled GNC to spread within the school system, but then suggests ASSC could "jettison Girl Scouts and 4-H Clubs." No, if there were no GNC presence in public schools, there would be no ASSC, so it was the author and his legal team who should take responsibility for jettisoning of Girl Scouts or 4-H Clubs. When you open the door to one religion in a public space in America, you open the door to all religions. Such is the nature of both the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment.

ClovenMischief

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Re: Discussion: Damage control on our pursuits?
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2016, 04:39:40 PM »
It seems like you are allowing propaganda (the Federalist link) to influence your opinion of ASSC. ...

Not really, it's a lot worse than that really.
I had disillusioned myself to ASSC's message only until recently. I thought they were merely using GNC as an example when they meant to imply ALL evangelical clubs (including the ones that are worse or downright not even approved). But as time wore on, and I listened and read everything TST and their opponents (as well as nonprofessional ones) put out and...I was wrong, they ONLY mention GNC ever (kinda). Having a target I understand, but they don't really put emphasis on others makes it look like an all out attack on GNC. I'm now assuming I was wrong to assume that TST was out to simply make parents aware of what their kids are exposed to. I mean, that's part of the core, it's not an emphasis so it seems.

I just thought the article was written in a way that looked like a passing grade. I compared the meat and matter of his words to other articles and what TST has put out too, so not swayed, just a compilation of comparative resources. It's also what longtail presented to me so respectively I'd read and talk about it. Bring something to the table and I will treat it the same respectively as I hope everyone does. Like now, right?
Though as I pointed out he said the negative side of the coin of consequences and perspective, there are articles that say the positive sides. And I see we agree that some of what he wrote was pretty stupid, XD lol.
I'm not sure I even agree with any of the article as most are possible outcomes that haven't or have not happened so it's just something we can only think and discuss about at this point. The concerns are real, even if some are dumb.


Anyways, we can't change what we've done. And this topic was just an example though I really do think it needs discussion.
I'm still deep over the points I made.
Some sort of signing form like they did for the kids in schools with Corporal Punishment. Not necessarily for the victim, but for the assholes who actually bully/abuse your kid. Make sure there is punishment, or atleast go through counciling that "they don't actually believe in satan" stuff.
Changing the name was just for example topic discussion sake, but still... it's fun to come up with names and still take them a little seriously. I'm still tickled over "Bad News Club" XD

Benjamin T. Awesome

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Re: Discussion: Damage control on our pursuits?
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2016, 05:31:28 PM »
thought they were merely using GNC as an example when they meant to imply ALL evangelical clubs (including the ones that are worse or downright not even approved). But as time wore on, and I listened and read everything TST and their opponents (as well as nonprofessional ones) put out and...I was wrong, they ONLY mention GNC ever (kinda). Having a target I understand, but they don't really put emphasis on others makes it look like an all out attack on GNC. I'm now assuming I was wrong to assume that TST was out to simply make parents aware of what their kids are exposed to. I mean, that's part of the core, it's not an emphasis so it seems.

There are already a lot of resources available, including a movie and a book, that serve to make parents aware of what their kids are being exposed to with respect to the GNC. Regarding the GNC as a target, my guess is that is because it was GNC that pursued litigation to forcibly insert themselves into public schools; it wasn't any other evangelical club that was the plaintiff in that case. I agree that other clubs out there are probably at least as bad as GNC, but if you're out to target the industry of inequity, it serves well to target the major players.

Quote
Anyways, we can't change what we've done.

Nor should we.

ClovenMischief

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Re: Discussion: Damage control on our pursuits?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2016, 12:11:45 PM »
thought they were merely using GNC as an example when they meant to imply ALL evangelical clubs (including the ones that are worse or downright not even approved). But as time wore on, and I listened and read everything TST and their opponents (as well as nonprofessional ones) put out and...I was wrong, they ONLY mention GNC ever (kinda). Having a target I understand, but they don't really put emphasis on others makes it look like an all out attack on GNC. I'm now assuming I was wrong to assume that TST was out to simply make parents aware of what their kids are exposed to. I mean, that's part of the core, it's not an emphasis so it seems.

There are already a lot of resources available, including a movie and a book, that serve to make parents aware of what their kids are being exposed to with respect to the GNC. Regarding the GNC as a target, my guess is that is because it was GNC that pursued litigation to forcibly insert themselves into public schools; it wasn't any other evangelical club that was the plaintiff in that case. I agree that other clubs out there are probably at least as bad as GNC, but if you're out to target the industry of inequity, it serves well to target the major players.

Didn't occur to look into what other evangelical clubs had used litigation to barge themselves in. Most of the ones I knew throughout the states weren't even approved they were more like secret cults, kids had to look both ways efore entering the meetup rooms after halls were closed for goodness sake. (THAT secretive) haha
Can't target something that refuses to bring itself to light, what I know does not equal what TST knows.

Damage control for what is to come, not what has happened. First point still stands. We're gonna have cruel backlash. I don't trust kids. Kids may be "little adults" but that also means they're little monster shits. lol

katansi

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Re: Discussion: Damage control on our pursuits?
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2016, 09:13:00 PM »
When I was a child I would have LOVED a club that introduced me to philosophical issues at my level and that made it known there were other things than believing in god and that there were other ways of thinking about right and wrong besides the standard shitty answers. I was vaguely aware that there were other religions in town but everyone else was assumed some sort of Christian and if you were Irish or Italian then you were Catholic. I knew where the JCC was and the Greek Orthodox churches were but there was no discussion, no outlet, no assumed person to ask.

Despite being raised in a mostly Christian environment I had a lot of problems trying to believe in a god and fit in with that. No one addressed these things and I didn't know who to ask. I did know going to CCD as a kid that certain questions would get me in trouble. I went to Catholic high and got no in depth discussion of even Christian philosophy, just mandates.

Giving kids adults that will listen to their questions and discuss moral issues they have outside of cultures that are largely about shame is a good thing. It is not martyring them. I'm not a parent but I'm involved in my goddaughter's (ha! "god") life and her mother is pagan. Is she a martyr because her mom's a dirt worshipping hippie? No. She is a kid that has questions about right and wrong, about how people should be treated, about why the world is cruel, etc. But since her mother doesn't believe in shaming her for her questions like a lot of Abrahamic religious leaders and followers do she's getting things to think about and gaining understanding. This club might seem like a joke to a lot of people but it's possibly the only place kids who don't swallow the commandments and bizarre religious "logic" have to ask questions.

This is the same stupid outcry against the liberal atheist breeding grounds also known as college and no one is saying college students are martyrs. Sure, an 18 year old has a more reasoning skills than an elementary schooler but to say that they are automatically just as firm in their selves and their values I think would be a stretch. And they are no safer from violence bred in ignorance. Speaking as a woman, my physical size and age have never made a difference in my safety, it was all who I ran into and when. Knowledge shouldn't be denied or hidden just because the ignorant, or those who benefit from ignorance, want it to. What kind of world do you want your kid to grow up in? One that will always teaches them to hide what they think, who they are, how they feel in deference to cruelty and blindness to reality or one that they help build that allows individuality, emphasizes compassion and careful thought behind actions and beliefs. I'd pick the latter. I've always picked the latter.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 09:15:19 PM by katansi »

ClovenMischief

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Re: Discussion: Damage control on our pursuits?
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2016, 12:58:38 PM »
When I was a child I would have LOVED a club that--------

I'm not saying get rid of clubs, they're here, and going to stay.
You're all acting like abuse isn't gonna happen, I'm just saying it might. So what we gonna do about it when it does? Or do you just believe it wont? Maybe you never experienced grade school cruelty in the heights that it can reach and just don't fathom it. In hopes of dispelling innocent ignorance, just saying I HAVE experienced it, it's really out there, and it MAY happen.. but it also might not. Both sides are right, but to not prepare isn't helping.

Progress so far: longtail brought up an article that (very minutely) answered a question regarding curriculum.
Benjamin T. Awesome opened my mind to the litigation stuff and thus I personally can shut up about GNC being the sole target.
The level of violence in other people's schools is apparently not the same as GA, MS, FL, and AL of which I can vouch for in such extreme violence and cruelty existing to this day. So far ASSC is in GA and FL, but those particular schools could be totally tame. (My fear is for when they expand and hit the BAD schools. 0_0)

Though the top two were both in responses to questions or concerns I personally had, and I'm honestly grateful, do remember this topic is not about me. And it's not solely about changing my mind (though it's cool if ya do and I welcome it). If someone comes up with something better (especially if it is factually supported) I jump on it. No emotional strings attached.

Not sure where "shaming" got involved, except that my first point stands to prepare for when they ARE shamed. In which case the abuser would need some counseling to enlighten them out of their parent bred fear of "Satan in name equals THEY BELIEVE IN SATAN and must be SAVED or PUNISHED" depending on how impulsive or violent their personality is, or in most cases they are cruel 'just because' in which case needs counseling EVEN more. (because people who feel nothing for consequences are possibly psychopaths)
I believe they need adults to talk to and entrust about these "more atheist" things too. Clubs a good idea, and clubs are here, just worrying about damage control. Three ways to deal with damage control in this case, the victim, the abuser, or both, which I find pretty interesting. I guess it would depend in the abuse whether it be verbal, light physical, or downright premeditated cruelty or violence. And not only that, but the abuser's thought process is; "do they think they worship a devil?" Or "are they just trying to impress their peers?"
In my experience, it's usually the latter in which case little reprimand would be needed. Maybe some counseling to "not be a dick", talk to them with their parents (so as to make sure the parents don't encourage such behavior) and a short suspension if they were physical in any way. My focus is on when it is the former though, those people need help, but punishment too and that's a weird combination to work with in a positive reinforcing way. Also parents should be involved, and counsel them as well if they too are "MY CHILD CAN BE CRUEL TO THAT CHILD BECAUSE MY GOD IS RIGHT" dicks.

Benjamin T. Awesome

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Re: Discussion: Damage control on our pursuits?
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2016, 01:23:42 PM »
You're all acting like abuse isn't gonna happen, I'm just saying it might. So what we gonna do about it when it does? Or do you just believe it wont? Maybe you never experienced grade school cruelty in the heights that it can reach and just don't fathom it. In hopes of dispelling innocent ignorance, just saying I HAVE experienced it, it's really out there, and it MAY happen.. but it also might not. Both sides are right, but to not prepare isn't helping.

I'm pretty sure abuse already happens and will continue to happen whether there is an ASSC or not. ASSC can offer a lot of things, but I don't think a global end to bullying is something it can accomplish without a lot of help from other groups. Do you think the "weird" kid isn't already being subjected to grade school cruelty, but all of a sudden will be when he or she joins ASSC? In fact, these clubs exist as a resource for young outsiders and budding freethinkers, where the cruelty they are experiencing can be unpacked and understood objectively, by way of learning about compassion and critical thinking. These kids will, perhaps, gain some understanding and coping abilities to deal with the cruelties they face and will continue to face for being "different," which could be better than them having to go it alone their entire childhood and wonder if the problem is them.

Kids with an independent spirit, kids who are naturally curious and skeptical, and kids who have an innate sense of right and wrong not predicated on arbitrary readings of ancient dogma are already out there. It may even be that most kids are that way until the likes of GNC beats these qualities out of them. The ASSC is not in the business of creating a new type of child to be bullied, but is a resource for these countless kids and their parents who are already out there who would enjoy and benefit from using ASSC as a resource.

Remember, we are not the GNC. We are not in the business of proselytizing or telling children what to believe. These clubs do not exist to enrich us, grow our religion, or spread our doctrine (we don't even have a doctrine to spread). They exist as a counter to the GNC because the GNC needs to be countered for reasons of civic well-being and justice. Our own tenets require that we take action to combat the ills resultant from the spread of evangelicalism in public schools, because these ills are a form of injustice perpetrated on children and on society as a whole, and ASSC is designed with the hope that it can be effective in this regard.

AlseYoung

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Re: Discussion: Damage control on our pursuits?
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2016, 04:09:38 PM »
Quote
Grade-school is such a troubling time for kids, we should know, we've been there. My middle school days were so traumatic I can't even recall them or any of the 'knowledge' I sat through. I wouldn't want that on any of my kids, let alone make it harder by sending them to a club with a villainized name in it.

Well, you know, the kids don't HAVE to attend. It's not like we're marching them into an ASSC with a pitchfork at their backs. If a kid is worried that attending the club will result in bullying or stigma, then that kid won't go, simple as that.

Besides, what's the alternative? Never do anything that a bully might not like? Good luck even getting out of bed in the morning. Bullies will always find something to victimize people over. It doesn't matter who you are or what you do, what you look like or who your friends are. It doesn't have a thing to do with you. It has everything to do with the bully.