Author Topic: Everything Wrong with TST and it's Tenets and why it must change.  (Read 1843 times)

Memnoch

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Everything wrong with TST and it’s 7 Tenets, why in it’s current state shouldn’t be considered a religion, satirical or otherwise, and why it must change.
By Memnoch the Devil.

First and foremost, I’d like it to be acknowledged that I am a big supporter of TST’s core beliefs, and it’s modus operandi. When I stumbled across TST at the start of this year I was absolutely thrilled to find it, the more I learned about TST, it’s activism, it’s tenets, the more I felt like I finally found somewhere I belonged, something I could invest my time in. It seemed right on many levels, and I was eager to become a willing participant.
It wasn’t long however before I started noticing some troubling signs, that my idealistic and perhaps misguided first impressions of the Temple, didn’t match the reality. Perhaps my expectations where too high.

The first unfortunate event happened when I simply tried to sign up to the forums. Again eagerly wanting to learn more about the Temple and participate in any way I could, the forums seemed to be a good place to start, frustratingly however, my confirmation email that I required before I could start participating never came. I waited several days, and still nothing. Finally, I decided  to reach out to an admin on Facebook (I can’t stand facebook by the way but you do what you must in this day in age) About a day after I joined the closed group that is “the official Satanic Temple forums” on facebook I messaged several admins, asking if they could take a look at my confirmation email issue.

Only one replied and I was told, and I quote; “The friends of Satan forum on the website isn't very active anymore. The primary forum of TST is the Facebook group now” – Frustrated but not undeterred I attempted to sign up again using a different email and I succeeded in creating the account I’m now using. I did find this quote quite disturbing however, firstly because I know many intelligent, sympathetic  people who absolutely will not use facebook, ever. Secondly, I felt that without so much as an indication on the website or here on the forums that this is in fact the case that there seems to be a disconnect between those running the website and those looking after the social experiment that is Facebook.

Furthermore I find that due to the personal nature of facebook, discussions in a medium such as these forums tends to be a lot more jovial and intelligent. In the absence of sharing our entire lives for the world to see here on the forums, we aren’t so prone to bias and to judge people on the basis of appearance or personal beliefs which all willingly share on the social network, and is merely human nature to do so. There is a level of anonymity here on the forums that allows us to get our point of view across without the threat of predisposition or bias due to an images of ourselves or what groups you may or may not be a part of. So if this is the case that these forums are no longer valid, or worthwhile then make it clear. Remove the forums altogether if that is the case rather then splitting the community into those who appreciate a forum such as this, and those who indulge in their own vanity and predispositions.

Contrary to that particular admins beliefs, It seems as though the forums here are very much alive and I much prefer discussion here then on the facebook group which from my point of view has become seriously toxic and only representing a righteous few, instead of representing the full cross section of members that make up the Temple. In my short time on the Facebook group I have seen several people be “bullied” out of the group for simply having an opinion that a privileged few didn’t agree with, to the point that they found themselves having to leave the group. Which is just wrong on and I don’t believe the creators of the Temple would agree with or condone this. And those who are charged with overseeing it seem sympathetic to those who would be the bullies. Which brings me to my first point:

Why the Tenets are worthless without adoption, and why they can’t currently be a basis for a religion, satirical or otherwise;

First of all, lets accept that ALL rules, laws, and guidelines are open to interpretation. – If this wasn’t the case, there would be no need for lawyers, judges or jurors.  This is a simple fact of life that must be accepted and respected.

In law we have lawyers that interpret these rules, and they get paid accordingly for their work, and they are held accountable.

In an organized religion you have Priests, Shamen, Clerics etc who interpret their respective texts and doctrines and assist their followers in comprehending them as per that interpretation. Typically there is also some kind of hierarchy that holds these people accountable. – If a Catholic priest begins to preach Scientology or Satanism, he is disciplined. If he leaves the church and wants to get married in a catholic church, he must write to the Vatican asking for special permission to do so.

TST has 7 tenets, or guidelines, interpretation is apparently up to the individual, but at the same time the interpretations of those who are privileged enough to either be in a position of power, ie an admin on Facebook, or someone who knows an admin trump any interpretations an individual might have. If there are “wrong” ways of interpreting the tenets and “right” ways of interpreting them, then how, as a follower, a participant are any of us to know the difference, when none of us have access to a Satanic version of a “Priest” or “Cleric” – There is no hierarchy, apparently, just a handful of “admins” who seem to enforce their will based purely on their own personal interpretations .

This is a highly dangerous, and actually quite damaging scenario the Temple faces and change must happen and soon or I foresee people seriously becoming disenfranchised with the whole thing and what TST stands for and this bright flame that we have ignited is going to turn into a dull burning amber, taken over by a select vocal minority who manage to enforce their own particular false brand of Satanism under the guise of justice and liberty. No different from what is happening with many other established churches and organisations around the world.

Tenet 4 states:  “The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo your own.”
Forgive me for being blunt here, but this tenet, as it stands needs to be either significantly modified, or removed all together, because it’s full of shit. My freedoms, and the freedoms of others have NOT been respected, they have be encroached upon several times and I have seen people leave as a result, and by fellow Satanists who should know better. I was banned (and now un banned from the Facebook group) for telling a Joke. Literally just telling a joke. I was being harassed by a select group of people for having a different point of view and defending a member who had just left the group for good after he himself had been harassed for the same reason. I was being insulted and bullied, all I did was tell a joke, no insults, no bad words, nothing directed at anyone in particular, the joke itself had no bearing or context with the topic at hand, its just the conversation had degraded to name calling and rather then sink to that level, I told a joke, completely off topic.

For that and the fact I didn’t fully and whole heartedly agree with every word of what was being said in the initial post I was banned by one admin, and then unbanned by another who seemingly didnt seem to agree with the initial ban and when I bought up the 4th Tenet I was told this:

“And one thing I want to point out, and Doug has pointed this out too is that the 4th tenet and the freedom to offend is intended to address the problem of people saying Satanism is offensive so we can't have those kinds of invocations at city hall or something of that nature. What the freedom to offend is not intended to address is someone's right to insult others with impunity. And I know you said that was a joke, but it didn't come across as a joke, it seemed malicious.”

OK, maybe my joke was interpreted as malicious, but there was in fact no malice intended, I have no doubt any free thinking individual who read what was being said about me and earlier, this guy who was bullied so much he felt he had to lash out and leave would agree was passive in comparison, but I was banned without so much as a warning or even a message to say that I was out of line or even an attempt to understand my intent, again as a practicing “Satanist” in an apparently “Satirical” religion, how the actual fuck am I or anyone for that matter is supposed to know the difference between an “insult” and my ability to “offend” without any kind of guidance at all is anyone's guess– By that rationale it’s OK to insult or offend anyone that isn’t apart of the group, but you pretty much have to agree with anything anyone within the temple has to say least you run the risk of insulting/offending them. This is not only highly hypocritical but also massively massively counter intuitive and confusing. Sure if someone is on their trolling obviously that shouldnt be tolerated, however there is a BIG difference from simply having a difference of opinnion and actively and overtly trying to grief, bully or troll. Which it was clear as day that wasnt the case. How can we ever be honest with each other if we're constantly living in fear that we might offend or insult someone and therefore get kicked without explination, purely because one person in a position of power sympathizes with a view other then your own, even though that view point may not be endorsed entirely by the Temple as a whole? Where are the checks and balances? The accountability?

If Doug, Lucien, the Satanic pope, whoever you want to consider as our guiding leader here (he says in most interviews he’s just a spokesperson so again, not sure who died and made him pope in any absence of an apparent hierarchy, and therefore why his word is therefore gospel - no disrespect) Says that tenet 4 isnt what it looks like as per that above quote - Then re write the tenet to reflect that, how are new members supposed to understand that interpretation without anyone explaining it to us? because on face value, for a group calling itself “The Temple of Satan” that tenet means exactly what it says. We should be trying to engender and encourage free thinking, mature individuals, not weak, petty simpletons who are easily offended. Without the ability to freely speak our minds we can never grow as a community. We actually go backwards. Perhaps that’s why according to that same admin these forums “aren’t very active anymore”

Without this tenet, but also not disregarding the other 6 which are also important, we are becoming far too politically correct, far too rigid and increasingly, at least from what I’ve seen in the Facebook group, less and less diverse. For a group that is supposed to represent many, a group that worships Satan of all figures, increasingly the TST Facebook group and perhaps the movement in general is fast turning into “The Exclusive Temple Of Satan for Feminists” – This is my opinion, you may not agree with it, you may not like it as I’m sure many wont. But is this insulting? Is this really that offensive? At what point do you say “OK ladies, and gents, maybe harassing the shit out of anyone who has an opinion in this group other then your own, word for word, until it gets nasty and they feel like they have to leave, male or female, maybe isn’t the best thing for the group as a whole?” I mean you can be in complete and utter agreement with whatever statement is made, but so much as warn about the dangers of generalizing, particular in a closed group where only fellow Satanists can read the content and you will be legitimately ganked by this self righteous faction of the group who seem extremely willing to “offend” under the guise of Justice and mutual respect, and then when one tries to defend his or her point of view your seemingly swarmed by this posse who seem to only see what they want to see, and hear only what they want to hear. – Even to those who apparently are completely sympathetic to their cause they just may not agree with one minor thing that was said.

 If change for the better is this groups singular purpose and not having petty arguments because someone has a difference of opinion, then rather then harassing people and then having their friends who share their opinions and also happen to have admin rights on the small facebook group we have, or in these forums for that matter (although again for some reason the forums are much nicer medium to communicate with) then where is the punishment for not adhearing to the very first Tenet which is; “One should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason.” ? Why is it that we treat those who might be misguided or ignorant with such extreme contempt? we lower ourselves to indulge in the shittiest parts of our psyche rather then seeing these people for who they are without sorrow or compassion. Without at least attempting to try and educate and enlighten them, respectfully, patiently.

If we aren’t even attempting to get people to see truth, deliver them from ignorance, if we continually are indulging in the emotional hemispheres of our brain every time someone says something we don’t agree with, then I am extremely dubious that change for a better world and not indulging in petty arguments through bias under the guise of social justice and liberty is really what the singular purpose of many on the facebook group hope to achieve.

1/ CLARITY; TENET’S MUST BE CLEARER, LESS OPEN TO INTERPRETATION OR AT VERY LEAST MODIFIED. TENET 4 IS A PRIME EXAMPLE. IF IT DOES IN FACT MEAN SOMETHING OTHER THEN WHAT IT SAYS, ELABORATE. ELSE EXPECT PEOPLE TO ASSUME OFFENDING, ALBEIT UN INTENTIONALLY IS A FREEDOM THEY SHOULD BE AFFORDED.

2/ COMMUNICATION; WE NEED A VOICE THAT SPEAKS TO US OTHER THEN THE ONLY ONE WE SEEM TO GET WHEN DEBATING STATE LAWS ON TV. BE BOLD, APPOINT SOMEONE THE COMMUNITY CAN LIAISE WITH REGARDING THE RELIGION ITSELF. IF IT IS IN FACT A RELIGION, SATIRICAL OR OTHERWISE.

3/ CONTINUITY; THE FORUMS ARE VERY MUCH ALIVE AND FACEBOOK IS ACTUALLY EVIL. SHTAP IT. KEEP THE COMMUNITY FROM FRAGMENTING WHEREVER POSSIBLE. FACEBOOK MAY NOT BE AROUND FOREVER, AT LEAST THE FORUMS ARE OUR OWN.

4/ ACCOUNTABILITY; WITHOUT IT THERES NO TRUST. WITHOUT TRUST THERES NO COMMUNITY.

5/ DIVERSITY; WE ARE ALL HERE FOR DIFFERENT REASONS, DIVERSITY IN THOUGHT, CULTURE AND PHILOSOPHY MUST BE PROTECTED AT ALL COSTS. OTHERWISE WE BECOME A SNAKE EATING ITS OWN TAIL. THE MOST VOCAL GROUP EVENTUALLY BECOMING THE DEFINING ONE.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 06:04:53 AM by Memnoch »
"Oh, dreadful angel of mine
Enrich me with the vastness of your being

Rigid father, teach me how to comprehend
I'll commit myself to understand

For I am the accomplice..."

Dimmu Borgir - "The insight and the catharsis"

Benjamin T. Awesome

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Re: Everything Wrong with TST and it's Tenets and why it must change.
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2016, 09:46:39 AM »
Without this tenet, but also not disregarding the other 6 which are also important, we are becoming far too politically correct, far too rigid and increasingly, at least from what I’ve seen in the Facebook group, less and less diverse. For a group that is supposed to represent many, a group that worships Satan of all figures, increasingly the TST Facebook group and perhaps the movement in general is fast turning into “The Exclusive Temple Of Satan for Feminists” – This is my opinion, you may not agree with it, you may not like it as I’m sure many won't.

It is impossible to adhere to the Seven Tenets and not be a feminist.

Leviathan

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Re: Everything Wrong with TST and it's Tenets and why it must change.
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2016, 12:45:20 PM »
Holy fuck can a nigga get a TL;DR?
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TheBlackSheep

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Re: Everything Wrong with TST and it's Tenets and why it must change.
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2016, 01:21:37 PM »
We had a High Priest but he left after personal problems with the temple. You can see him explain it on YouTube.

A new High Priest would be very beneficial and overall cool. Personally, I want Jex Blackmore to be the new high priestess, she seems more than capable.
"It is better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven"

Skar

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Re: Everything Wrong with TST and it's Tenets and why it must change.
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2016, 02:01:47 PM »
Jex ❤

Leviathan

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Re: Everything Wrong with TST and it's Tenets and why it must change.
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2016, 03:37:16 PM »
I second this. Someone make a "jex for priestess 2016" thread.
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Memnoch

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Re: Everything Wrong with TST and it's Tenets and why it must change.
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2016, 08:10:44 PM »
Holy fuck can a nigga get a TL;DR?

A children's coloring book version is on its way I'll let you know holmes.
"Oh, dreadful angel of mine
Enrich me with the vastness of your being

Rigid father, teach me how to comprehend
I'll commit myself to understand

For I am the accomplice..."

Dimmu Borgir - "The insight and the catharsis"

Memnoch

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Re: Everything Wrong with TST and it's Tenets and why it must change.
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2016, 08:17:52 PM »
Without this tenet, but also not disregarding the other 6 which are also important, we are becoming far too politically correct, far too rigid and increasingly, at least from what I’ve seen in the Facebook group, less and less diverse. For a group that is supposed to represent many, a group that worships Satan of all figures, increasingly the TST Facebook group and perhaps the movement in general is fast turning into “The Exclusive Temple Of Satan for Feminists” – This is my opinion, you may not agree with it, you may not like it as I’m sure many won't.

It is impossible to adhere to the Seven Tenets and not be a feminist.

Then why don't we just cut the bullshit and just proclaim to be nothing more or less? instead of leading people to believe we're allowed to have different points of view even if those points of view are offensive? This is the problem with this argument, it's too easy to synthesize everything down to just "your a feminist" or "your demonizing feminists" - you legimately cant even post something about male suicide without it being hijacked by feminism. Go look. - Let's just call this group for what it is then. The Temple of Satanic Feminists.. why the front for anything else if thats the case? I'm certainly not anti-equal rights and sure I'm sympathetic to Feminists but does that make me a Feminist? Would I call myself a Feminist? No, because that would be insulting to Feminists. Same reason I wouldn't call myself a Christian Muslim or Jew. To do so would be to insult them, for I don't strictly live by their doctrines, nor do I have a vagina.

Here's TST's mission statement:


"The mission of The Satanic Temple is to encourage benevolence and empathy among all people, reject tyrannical authority, advocate practical common sense and justice, and be directed by the human conscience to undertake noble pursuits guided by the individual will. Civic-minded, The Satanic Temple has been involved in a number of good works including taking a stand against the controversial and extremist Westboro Baptist Church, working on behalf of children in public school who have been subject to corporal punishment and more."

So what happens when that tyranny comes from within? When one group becomes so dominant, so vocal, it basically drowns out all others?

« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 08:30:13 PM by Memnoch »
"Oh, dreadful angel of mine
Enrich me with the vastness of your being

Rigid father, teach me how to comprehend
I'll commit myself to understand

For I am the accomplice..."

Dimmu Borgir - "The insight and the catharsis"

Benjamin T. Awesome

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Re: Everything Wrong with TST and it's Tenets and why it must change.
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2016, 08:52:28 PM »
Let's just call this group for what it is then. The Temple of Satanic Feminists.

That would be redundant, sort of like calling us The Satanic Temple of Satanists, or The Satanic Temple of We Disagree with Scientology . Everyone who understands the Seven Tenets understands we are feminists, and everyone understands we disagree with Scientology. We don't need to balloon the name of the organization to something 5,000 words long to address everything that follows from our tenets, do we?

Memnoch

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Re: Everything Wrong with TST and it's Tenets and why it must change.
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2016, 08:55:35 PM »
Whats wrong with Scientology?
"Oh, dreadful angel of mine
Enrich me with the vastness of your being

Rigid father, teach me how to comprehend
I'll commit myself to understand

For I am the accomplice..."

Dimmu Borgir - "The insight and the catharsis"

Benjamin T. Awesome

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Re: Everything Wrong with TST and it's Tenets and why it must change.
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2016, 09:44:18 PM »
I don't believe in it is all. Ergo, I disagree with it.

Memnoch

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Re: Everything Wrong with TST and it's Tenets and why it must change.
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2016, 10:55:39 PM »
I don't believe in it is all. Ergo, I disagree with it.

And this is precisely the point. Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean you have to disagree with it. And just because you believe in something doesn't mean you have to agree with it verbatim.

This is a common trend I'm finding here, the habit of polarizing a topic when it's neither constructive or necessary. Only extremists are so rigid as to deal in absolutes, the same people we're supposed to be against. The reality is rarely ever so conveniently right or wrong, black or white. Yet as apparent Satanists we seem to be throwing grey out the window in almost every instance.

Again though this is why we cant at this point consider ourselves a religion. Or even a loosely organized cult for that matter. Without definitive guidance, organization or clarity it's a boat without a rudder at the mercy of the waves. "Activists" maybe, but definitely not a religion. Satirical or otherwise. Disagreements are bound to happen and often, and with the wrong people, about the wrong things in the absence of clarity and discipline.

As a side note: there are so many things wrong with Scientology I'm blown away at how simplistic that answer was lol. You could of said anything from simply "John Travolta" to brainwashing and extorting money out tens of thousands of weak minded people tax free and I would of at least respected and or had a chuckle at that.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2016, 11:22:22 PM by Memnoch »
"Oh, dreadful angel of mine
Enrich me with the vastness of your being

Rigid father, teach me how to comprehend
I'll commit myself to understand

For I am the accomplice..."

Dimmu Borgir - "The insight and the catharsis"

Benjamin T. Awesome

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Re: Everything Wrong with TST and it's Tenets and why it must change.
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2016, 12:58:32 AM »
And this is precisely the point. Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean you have to disagree with it. And just because you believe in something doesn't mean you have to agree with it verbatim.

Their beliefs are at odds with mine, though. Should I just ignore their pseudo-scientific methodology and pretend I agree with them?

Quote
This is a common trend I'm finding here, the habit of polarizing a topic when it's neither constructive or necessary. Only extremists are so rigid as to deal in absolutes, the same people we're supposed to be against. The reality is rarely ever so conveniently right or wrong, black or white. Yet as apparent Satanists we seem to be throwing grey out the window in almost every instance.

Maybe you haven't been paying attention, but the Satanic Temple is very much involved in actively opposing wrongs. Wrongs happen everday, all over the world. No need to be wishy-washy about them. Some things out in the world go against the spirit of benevolence and empathy; if people get offended when we call those out, so be it.

Quote
Again though this is why we cant at this point consider ourselves a religion. Or even a loosely organized cult for that matter. Without definitive guidance, organization or clarity it's a boat without a rudder at the mercy of the waves. "Activists" maybe, but definitely not a religion. Satirical or otherwise. Disagreements are bound to happen and often, and with the wrong people, about the wrong things in the absence of clarity and discipline.

Fortunately, we don't need your approval on that. You can believe whatever you want. I say we're a religion, and we're also unapologetic feminists. The tenets agree with me. You are wanting TST to be something it isn't, complete with different tenets, and you are in here saying it must change. You want an entirely different religion. I don't, and I see no convincing argument for why I should abandon my principles to suit you.

Quote
As a side note: there are so many things wrong with Scientology I'm blown away at how simplistic that answer was lol. You could of said anything from simply "John Travolta" to brainwashing and extorting money out tens of thousands of weak minded people tax free and I would of at least respected and or had a chuckle at that.

I am not a hater. I just believe they are in the anti-science business, so I do not agree with them. I am happy to oppose whatever injustices they commit, but they are entitled to their beliefs.

Memnoch

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Re: Everything Wrong with TST and it's Tenets and why it must change.
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2016, 02:02:15 AM »
I'm not going to validate any of that with an answer, because we're just going to go around in circles here clearly, and I have better things to do with my time then try and draw blood from stone. I've spent the time and made my point here in the "feedback" section.

I have nothing more to say other then, anyone, believing themselves to be apart of a religion, satirical or otherwise, from so called Satanists, to Muslims, Or Jews. Should be very careful not to start believing their own bullshit.
"Oh, dreadful angel of mine
Enrich me with the vastness of your being

Rigid father, teach me how to comprehend
I'll commit myself to understand

For I am the accomplice..."

Dimmu Borgir - "The insight and the catharsis"

Benjamin T. Awesome

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Re: Everything Wrong with TST and it's Tenets and why it must change.
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2016, 10:22:22 AM »
I'm not going to validate any of that with an answer, because we're just going to go around in circles here clearly, and I have better things to do with my time then try and draw blood from stone. I've spent the time and made my point here in the "feedback" section.

Your feedback is equivalent to joining the chess club then demanding they start playing checkers.