Author Topic: Guiding principles of Lavey  (Read 2186 times)

Calvin

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Guiding principles of Lavey
« on: August 14, 2016, 08:12:57 AM »
1 Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence
2 Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams
3 Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead hypocritical seif deceit
4 Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates
5 Satan represents vengance instead of turning the other cheek
6 Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires
7 Man as just another animal ,sometime better,more often worse than those that walk on all fours who because of his divine spiritual intellectual development has become the most vicious animal of all
8 Satan represents all lead to physical, mental or emotional gratification
9 Satan has been the best friend the church has ever had,as he has kept itin business all these years
Feel free to add your comments as we discuss on these principles and how to apply them

Ahto

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Re: Guiding principles of Lavey
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2016, 09:47:22 PM »
6 Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires

I have a big problem with this one. Or, at least, my interpretation of it. I'm not very familiar with LaVey's philosophy outside of the Satanic Bible, so feel free to correct any of these interpretations. But it sounds like the idea is "if someone can take care if themselves, you should help them. But if they aren't able to take care of themselves, you should leave them to suffer." Don't help people with depression, don't help people with terminal illnesses, don't help someone who's about to commit suicide because of fixable problems in their life. If they were worth your time, they wouldn't be in that situation.

7 Man as just another animal ,sometime better,more often worse than those that walk on all fours who because of his divine spiritual intellectual development has become the most vicious animal of all

I completely disagree on a lot of levels. Humans are one of the few animals who're intelligent enough to understand the ethical consequences of their actions. Animals (especially carnivores) live through killing and maiming one another. Their entire existence is about inflicting suffering for their own benefit. Humans do eat meat, but we kill animals in painless and humane ways. We do wage wars, but they're often for the greater good. Animals kill constantly and mercilessly.

8 Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!

Does that include things like murder and rape? What does it mean to say that Satan "represents" something? Does the Church of Satan officially endorse every sin in the bible, or what?

samowens84

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Re: Guiding principles of Lavey
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2016, 10:51:41 PM »
6 Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires

I have a big problem with this one. Or, at least, my interpretation of it. I'm not very familiar with LaVey's philosophy outside of the Satanic Bible, so feel free to correct any of these interpretations. But it sounds like the idea is "if someone can take care if themselves, you should help them. But if they aren't able to take care of themselves, you should leave them to suffer." Don't help people with depression, don't help people with terminal illnesses, don't help someone who's about to commit suicide because of fixable problems in their life. If they were worth your time, they wouldn't be in that situation.


If I'm not responsible for someone being in a bad place, then I won't assume responsibility for it. I look at it in a pragmatic way that I am not responsible for everyone who happens to be in a bad place, and so it benefits me to not assume responsibility for them. I may feel responsible to my grandmother if she is sick, but I'm not responsible for every ailing woman who wants to be a grandmother. As for suicide, if I'm not responsible for their mindset, then I'm not responsible for getting them out of it. At what point is it acceptable to expect someone who is suicidally depressed to take responsibility for their depression? I find my resources are better spent on those willing to help themselves, if they are not, then their death is inevitable. Satanism for me is acknowledging that we are only our own saviors. Christianity is about saving everybody, not Satanism. The other side of responsibility to the responsible, is that I am free to take on whatever responsibility I want, as long as I do so responsibly and with full awareness of the consequences. If you want to play savior, that is your choice, and that's the point. There is no skydaddy looking down and discriminating for everyone what they should and should not be doing. That responsibility only lies with the individual, not with some God or socially conforming expectations. would you ask someone who is not naturally a caregiver to watch your child? I wouldn't. does that make them less to me? no, because I believe that people should only assume responsibility for what comes natural to them. For me, compulsive "goodness" is not a tenet of satanism, and neither is telling others what they should and should not be doing. If that is your prerogative, then you are not of the left hand path. Just saying.





7 Man as just another animal ,sometime better,more often worse than those that walk on all fours who because of his divine spiritual intellectual development has become the most vicious animal of all

"i completely disagree on a lot of levels. Humans are one of the few animals who're intelligent enough to understand the ethical consequences of their actions. Animals (especially carnivores) live through killing and maiming one another. Their entire existence is about inflicting suffering for their own benefit. Humans do eat meat, but we kill animals in painless and humane ways. We do wage wars, but they're often for the greater good."

You are very young if you believe this. Wars tend to be for profit, and the greater good is profit justification. Typically, "greater good," is another way to lie about the true motivation, which is greed. I have no problem with greed, but not acknowledging it's play is irresponsible, to the point where no one can take responsibility for their actions. Because of this common delusion people spend more time talking themselves into things than in figuring things out, but I digress. Also you need only do a little research that we are not "humane" with how we treat animals. when profit is at stake, we are typically cruel. Just look at the chicken industry. Satanism does not represent how the world should be, as you would believe, but in acknowledging for as it really is. Most ethical theories are faced with an unbridgeable gap from how to turn an ought into an is. As a satanist, I not only do not have that problem, but also do not suffer from the delusional fantasies that often come with it.

As for the "seven deadly sins," you have to know your early church history to really appreciate that, and St. Augustine in particular. He wrote the book on what would send you to hell, and he associated everything "worldly" gratifying to be a sin, and that we should reject them in favor of spirituality. As a satanist, I feel liberated to enjoy worldly comforts without guilt, and find many of the seven deadly sins empowering. Basically, the early church was designed to validate joylessness, powerlessness and masochism, whereas satan, who is often described as the prince of this world, represents true independence of spirit, and an embrace of all things worldly. To take that literally and assume it might justify rape and murder is just silly. Of course, arguing ethics and logic with someone interested in rape and murder is a laughably futile task, which takes us back to responsibility to the responsible.


Ahto

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Re: Guiding principles of Lavey
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2016, 11:54:40 PM »
If I'm not responsible for someone being in a bad place, then I won't assume responsibility for it. I look at it in a pragmatic way that I am not responsible for everyone who happens to be in a bad place, and so it benefits me to not assume responsibility for them.

I can actually understand that. As long as you aren't actively causing harm in the world, by exploiting people for example, I think that's an okay way to live your life. I guess I just interpreted that one wrong.

At what point is it acceptable to expect someone who is suicidally depressed to take responsibility for their depression?

How would someone 'take responsibility' for depression? Do you mean by seeing a psychiatrist or psychologist?

For me, compulsive "goodness" is not a tenet of satanism, and neither is telling others what they should and should not be doing. If that is your prerogative, then you are not of the left hand path. Just saying.

Isn't the left hand path more of a mystical supernatural idea? I thought the left hand/right hand dichotomy was similar to the white magic/black magic dichotomy.

You are very young if you believe this. Wars tend to be for profit, and the greater good is profit justification. Typically, "greater good," is another way to lie about the true motivation, which is greed. I have no problem with greed, but not acknowledging it's play is irresponsible, to the point where no one can take responsibility for their actions. Because of this common delusion people spend more time talking themselves into things than in figuring things out, but I digress.

This is one of my biggest pet peeves, is people who want to believe that everything in the world is controlled by evil corporations, and all the bad things in the world aren't a result of the fact that the world just kinda sucks sometimes, but are part of a vast conspiracy of cackling businessmen chomping on cigars and sending millions to their deaths. It reminds me of my friend who thinks that marijuana cures cancer, but the evil "Big Pharma" doesn't want to see cancer cured. There's definitely a lot of money in building and selling army supplies like weapons, medical equipment, vehicles, etc. But can you provide any evidence that profit has been a motivating factor for any of the wars in the past 100 years?

Also you need only do a little research that we are not "humane" with how we treat animals. when profit is at stake, we are typically cruel. Just look at the chicken industry.

In the past, I've done some fairly extensive research into how pigs are treated, since they're by far the most intelligent animal that we eat. And I think we do a good job of killing them painlessly, at least. Their lives may not be as interesting as if they were wild animals, but I think they're much less likely to be in pain or to be constantly afraid. "When profit is at stake, we are typically cruel" is a nice dramatic narrative that sells 'shocking' documentaries and 'horrifying' news reports, but I've rarely found there to be any validity to those kind of claims in any first-world countries.

Chickens are extremely unintelligent, to the point where killing them is like stepping on a cockroach. Though that's obviously an exaggeration, you get my point. But even with that in mind, I bet most farm-raised chickens live happier and healthier lives than they would in the wild, where they might spend months walking on a broken leg only to slowly die of starvation.

Satanism does not represent how the world should be, as you would believe, but in acknowledging for as it really is. Most ethical theories are faced with an unbridgeable gap from how to turn an ought into an is. As a satanist, I not only do not have that problem, but also do not suffer from the delusional fantasies that often come with it.

Any ethical philosophy should have at least some idea of how the world should be. The whole point of ethics is to understand what's right and wrong. But the way you describe LaVeyan Satanism, it sounds like LaVey saw that there were bad things in the world and decided to embrace that and enjoy the evil in the world. Maybe even add to it a little bit. But how do you turn an 'ought' into an 'is'? It's actually really simple. Just live your life in accordance with your own ethical convictions and hope that everyone else comes to their own conclusions and does the same thing. Humans have been getting more intelligent and more ethical since the beginning of our species. One of the running themes in human history seems to be that 'time and technology makes everything overall better'. And all we need to do is consciously work to push society into becoming more rational and more ethical. But if we didn't have an idea of what a more ethical society would look like, it'd be pretty hard to work toward making that change. Embracing or enjoying the flaws in the world is counter-productive at best.

As for the "seven deadly sins," you have to know your early church history to really appreciate that, and St. Augustine in particular. He wrote the book on what would send you to hell, and he associated everything "worldly" gratifying to be a sin, and that we should reject them in favor of spirituality. As a satanist, I feel liberated to enjoy worldly comforts without guilt, and find many of the seven deadly sins empowering. Basically, the early church was designed to validate joylessness, powerlessness and masochism, whereas satan, who is often described as the prince of this world, represents true independence of spirit, and an embrace of all things worldly. To take that literally and assume it might justify rape and murder is just silly. Of course, arguing ethics and logic with someone interested in rape and murder is a laughably futile task, which takes us back to responsibility to the responsible.

Ah, okay. That does make sense. I just wish LaVey had been clearer when writing that particular principle. One of the things I'm starting to notice is LaVey writes things that're very vague, that sound like they're really nasty and horrible, but if you interpret them in the right way they turn out to be decently rational. Like how he talks about 'destroying' people who you don't like.

samowens84

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Re: Guiding principles of Lavey
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2016, 12:53:25 AM »
Honestly I'm not interested in debating animal rights. I'll let you debate one of the vegans on the board,.or maybe you'd rather resurrect the compassion for animals thread, although amusingly I do see something satanic in your response, in how you reserve your concern for the intelligent animal and disregard the weak. Stratification at work and weirdly in line with Laveyan satanism.

As for depression, yes, I would have to see a willingness to take medication and seek therapy in order for me to feel like my help would be effective. If someone wants me to validate their self pity, then no, I do not want to help them.

The left hand path is complex, but it is more focused on self empowerment than on service to others, except for a select few that I willingly take on, for whatever reason I see fit. It is not so focused on the supernatural as I understand it, although selfish Magick is often included as a fulfillment of individual will, but has a concerted selfish philosophy behind it.

As for whether greed is a motive, you were the one who claimed that wars were done for the greater good. I think the burden of proof is on you, as you made that claim. My experience with human nature is that selfish motive plays a role in everything we do, and so that is the default assumption. Of course I never characterized it as some cackling monopoly man. I gave nuance as to how believing in a "greater good" leads ostensibly "Well intentioned" individuals into deceiving themselves about their motives. I've seen it in individuals I've known personally. As for citing evidence, I can argue that nobody had any clarity when they argued that American troops would be treated as liberators and they would be naming streets after president Bush. Perhaps hubris is easier to identify in this case.

This is where we disagree. I don't believe in an objective good and evil. The way I view satanism is that it's pragmatic and amoral, not "evil." You can have your own set of ethics, but you are not in a position to impose it on others. The way I understand it is that people are only required to embrace what comes natural to an individual. If that means "embracing evil" then there is nothing unsatanic about that. your disgust with that means that is not what comes natural to you, and you are under no obligation to live that way. The only dictum is that one live with self integrity and be true to your nature. Not for any moral reason, but because this is the only way I've discovered to live a joyous and and empowered life.

The question I have for you is "better" for who? If you mean for everybody then that is not how people usually act. One only need look at the discrepancy between the K-12 education of poor predominantly minority neighborhoods and rich white ones. You can try to act for what's best for everyone, but it's an act of solipsism to assume that everyone or even a majority of everyone is honestly trying to do the same. As for your last point, accepting and working with a dysfunctional system is to my mind a clear headed and pragmatic way of approaching it. Some may take a perverse enjoyment out of that real world fact, and I see nothing wrong with that. if they are in a position to change something that they don't like, there is nothing wrong with that either, as long as it is not futile and self destructive. However I also acknowledge that it is no one's business to decide what they should and should not do as long as they are willing to suffer the consequences, and that includes the social consequences tied to the approval or disapproval of anyone involved. Right and wrong is what I like and what I don't like. That freedom is an integral part of living with a left hand philosophy. You have a vision for how you want the world to look like, then cleverness and resources must be coupled with your vision, otherwise your code is simply an intricate Web of self deception, or self indulgent fantasy. Many people have a different vision for how the world should look like, and people with stronger convictions and resources will win, not the innate "rightness" of a thing. Again, to assume everyone is naturally inclined to your definition of "rightness" is solipsistic at best.

Personally I enjoy his shocking and deceptively reasonable tenets. People who are simplistic and literal will be shooed away while critical thinkers will be driven to find the nuance, and so filters out the wise from the foolish. In the satanic scriptures Peter Gilmore whimsically mused about how someone asked when they would make a "Satanism for dummies" and he replied that "Satanism isn't for dummies."

samowens84

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Re: Guiding principles of Lavey
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2016, 01:24:34 AM »
Also, I liked how you flipped what I said about turning an is to an ought and made it about turning something from an ought to an is. I actually agree with that, but you ignore my actual question. First I'll posit the final arbiter for what you ought to do is you, and this can be different things for different people depending on their natural inclination. Also, when you said "your own ethics" and "hoping others do the same" Do you mean hope that their ethics is the same as yours? And is hope the same as assuming they are doing the same? That seems to explain your outlook that everyone is as well intentioned as you project yourself.as being, which does not seem realistic to me.

The point I made was philosophical. Ethical systems have a hard time getting from how things are, to justifying it's vision to how things should be. Facts do not justify beyond the interest of an individual. Not saying that is how things ought to be, but just an acknowledgement for how things are.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 01:33:54 AM by samowens84 »

ClovenMischief

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Re: Guiding principles of Lavey
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2016, 09:07:45 PM »
1 Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence
2 Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams
3 Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead hypocritical seif deceit
4 Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates
5 Satan represents vengance instead of turning the other cheek
6 Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires
7 Man as just another animal ,sometime better,more often worse than those that walk on all fours who because of his divine spiritual intellectual development has become the most vicious animal of all
8 Satan represents all lead to physical, mental or emotional gratification
9 Satan has been the best friend the church has ever had,as he has kept itin business all these years
Feel free to add your comments as we discuss on these principles and how to apply them

I'm not ignoring what you guys are talking about, I just think I see these way differently so pardon if it seemed off topic. It's just a different view.
When I first read these I knew these are exactly what a questioning Christian needed to see, whether to strike fear into them or to awaken the questioning Christian as it is exactly what I needed to see and I know other Christians who read this and put that book down like it was a burning coal. "They want to be just like the Devil? Blasphemy! Such evil! How could they?!" They saw Satan in the sentence along with these personal qualities we can strive for and they freaked out.

But nowadays it seems completely unnecessary to a member and one who studies Satan and the occult. Every time I read this bit I begin to wonder why he didn't just put... well... everything on these pages here instead (or at least in a later chapter)--> https://encyclopediasatanica.wordpress.com/2014/02/01/the-four-principles-satan-lucifer-leviathan-and-belial/ and http://www.dpjs.co.uk/crownprinces.html (on the second one is a blanket url, you'll have to click on the different Princes to see their information)

Understanding the Four Crown Princes of Hell in general is far more satisfying and understandable (not to mention if you follow in their ways it can make you a better person) whereas in these passages he blanket terms the different princes under the name of Satan and leaves out so much in-between.
They sound terrifying to a Christian, but wonderful and self applying if you know even more about the Crown Princes. These look like they were written for shock value, in which we know much of the beginning chapters were. It's like he wanted a Christian to slam that book down after reading a page because after a few chapters the book is kinda calm.

I neither believe in nor worship these Princes, but I often focus on one or more throughout my day and try to be more like them. For example, today I "called forth Belial" to help me find my defiance (I tend to let myself be unnecessarily pushed around at work).
Applying what they stand for to my own life for my own personal well being. So that implies these guiding principles and all the in between that Lavey didn't say.

Calvin

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Re: Guiding principles of Lavey
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2016, 11:33:25 PM »
Am glad you are keeping this discussion rolling. ..The make the discussion more interesting we can draw reference from the first book in the Satanic bible .If you read the book of satan which Lavey greatly borrowed ideas from Redbeard's Might is Right edited to remove racism,anti_semitism and misogyny
this guiding principles challenge both the Ten commandments and the Golden Rule instead advocating a tooth for a tooth philosophy.
Human are instinctually predatory and lust and canal desire are singled out as part of human's intrinsic nature

prhill

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Re: Guiding principles of Lavey
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2016, 02:10:13 PM »
They might want to specify the 2nd one "Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams" as meaning god and not spiritual things in general since so many LaVeyans do believe in an after life and spirits but not a god

Alchemist16AD

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Re: Guiding principles of Lavey
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2016, 06:35:39 PM »
1 Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence
2 Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams
3 Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead hypocritical seif deceit
4 Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates
5 Satan represents vengance instead of turning the other cheek
6 Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires
7 Man as just another animal ,sometime better,more often worse than those that walk on all fours who because of his divine spiritual intellectual development has become the most vicious animal of all
8 Satan represents all lead to physical, mental or emotional gratification
9 Satan has been the best friend the church has ever had,as he has kept itin business all these years
Feel free to add your comments as we discuss on these principles and how to apply them

I think they sound much better once you have read the book and then re read them. From a stand point of just reading them a lot of confusion rises.

Get A Life

Anton Szandor LaVey

As far as I’m concerned, I would like my organization, the Church of Satan, to exist as a cabal for the mutual endowment of those already occupied with interests and activities other than organizational. I have often stated that I like to think of the Church of Satan as an organization for non-joiners. Affiliation need not negate independence. Affiliation should be based on respect, rather than desperation. Respect for a set of principles and for other men and women who share those principles, yet who are not dependent on an organization to give substance to their lives. The obvious question arises: “Why then, would such persons need a Church of Satan?” The answer is, “They don’t, unless it can do them some good.” Affiliation should enhance one’s life, rather than be a substitute for it.

Affiliation should enhance one’s life, rather than be a substitute for it.”
 

Anyone who resists affiliation with the Church of Satan yet draws from it for any reason, personal or financial, is not independent, only parasitic. Accordingly, any vainglorious exemption from organizational affiliation, based on personal freedom and independence, falls upon deaf ears. That is scavenging of the lowest sort. It is the parasitic role of the groupie, the hanger-on, the lot louse, the kibitzer, the shnorrer, the cake eater, the panhandler who loiters outside a restaurant accosting diners as they depart. There is nothing admirable in hawking “independence” while sucking existence from a bloc of beneficially linked, but individually productive persons—in the present case, members of the Church of Satan. Translation: they want all the benefits of affiliation, with none of the responsibilities.

It will be argued that, Satanically speaking, if anyone can assume and maintain the aforementioned position of having ones’ cake and eating it too—more power to them. My answer to that one is: “Fine, but not with my outfit, they don’t.” And if anyone in my outfit supports such chicanery, they in turn, should quit the Church of Satan and start their own thing. Just don’t expect to pull the same parasitic dodge yourself. It won’t wash any better with you doing it. If your freedom stops at the end of my nose, your profit stops a whole lot further away than that.

Members of the Church of Satan may not be fulfilling their destinies to their complete satisfaction, but they do have destinies. The best of them have already taken steps to actualize those destinies. The Church of Satan should serve as a generator for existing energy.
Forged from wisdom, crafted from knowledge, a product of intelligence, raised by ignorance and stupidly. -Myself .

Alchemist16AD

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Re: Guiding principles of Lavey
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2016, 06:53:13 PM »



Forged from wisdom, crafted from knowledge, a product of intelligence, raised by ignorance and stupidly. -Myself .

Alchemist16AD

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Re: Guiding principles of Lavey
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2016, 07:35:19 PM »
1 Satan represents indulgence instead of abstinence  (self explanatory.)

2 Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams.) Enjoy your life stop wishing for shit you won't ever get. if you want something work at it stop wishing for it.

3 Satan represents undefiled wisdom instead hypocritical seif deceit.) Stop seeing the world for what it's not, and see it for what it is.

4 Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it instead of love wasted on ingrates.) It's ok to be nice to people, but stop wasting it on assholes and dicks that don't deserve it.

5 Satan represents vengance instead of turning the other cheek.) You don't have to be nice to people who miss treat you. Someone shoots at me I am shooting back.

6 Satan represents responsibility to the responsible instead of concern for psychic vampires.. Give a man a fish he eats for a day teach a man to fish he eats for life. You give a guy 20 bucks that guy is going to just keep wanting more.

7 Man as just another animal ,sometime better,more often worse than those that walk on all fours who because of his divine spiritual intellectual development has become the most vicious animal of all.. Animals kill for food.  Man often kill for fun.  Sport hunting etc. Murder etc.

8 Satan represents all lead to physical, mental or emotional gratification (I think you meant:Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!) I say enjoy yourself everyone knows what's right and wrong.( not talking morals etc I mean with in the law etc)  And if you chose to do something  wrong you must know your risking paying for it. As for sins of the Christian church etc  its your life ..

9 Satan has been the best friend the church has ever had,as he has kept itin business all these years  (self explanatory)

Feel free to add your comments as we discuss on these principles and how to apply them I did why haven't you?
Forged from wisdom, crafted from knowledge, a product of intelligence, raised by ignorance and stupidly. -Myself .

ClovenMischief

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Re: Guiding principles of Lavey
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2016, 10:19:41 PM »

2 Satan represents vital existence instead of spiritual pipe dreams.) Enjoy your life stop wishing for shit you won't ever get. if you want something work at it stop wishing for it.

It's sad, but whilst growing up I never understood that line....
Until now.
Yeah, even after the book tried to explain it I still had no idea all this time. "Pipe Dreams" was never used in a sense I could understand it before. I knew it was said by people, I just never got the context.

Am glad you are keeping this discussion rolling. ..The make the discussion more interesting we can draw reference from the first book in the Satanic bible .If you read the book of satan which Lavey greatly borrowed ideas from Redbeard's Might is Right edited to remove racism,anti_semitism and misogyny
this guiding principles challenge both the Ten commandments and the Golden Rule instead advocating a tooth for a tooth philosophy.
Human are instinctually predatory and lust and canal desire are singled out as part of human's intrinsic nature
Uhh, your grammar is throwing me off. I'm no Grammar Nazi but you're making it hard to understand English there buddy.
Did you mean there is an edited version of Might is Right or did you wish it was edited to not include those things? I couldn't find an edited version on Google's many ways of searching.

Calvin

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Re: Guiding principles of Lavey
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2016, 10:43:37 PM »
I meant. if your read the book "Might is Right " you will find that this book greatly influenced Lavey's writing which is suspected to have being edited by Lavey though this accusation has long been cleared

ClovenMischief

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Re: Guiding principles of Lavey
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2016, 10:56:42 PM »
I meant. if your read the book "Might is Right " you will find that this book greatly influenced Lavey's writing which is suspected to have being edited by Lavey though this accusation has long been cleared
Then what is there to talk about it? Everyone (at least everyone here because of former discussions) knows this.