Author Topic: Feminism and Satanism  (Read 5370 times)

Lilith201

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Feminism and Satanism
« on: March 23, 2016, 06:07:04 PM »
The time has come for me to start this thread. I am tired of the misperceptions of feminism that periodically crop up on this forum.

Feminism means a belief that women should have equal rights to men. If you believe that, you are a feminist. If you don't believe that, you aren't a feminist and you are a male chauvinist or a sexist, whichever term you prefer.

I question whether a male chauvinist or a sexist could be a Satanist, but if someone wants to put forth an argument that they can be a sexist and a Satanist, I would certainly be intrigued to hear it.

Feminists comprise a diversity of people who may disagree on many issues. For example different feminists disagree on topics such as whether prostitution should be legalized, whether pornography is harmful to women and whether men who think they are women should be allowed to play on women's or girl's sports teams. There are divisions in feminism because it is a broad movement.

Many people who call themselves feminists today are giving feminism a bad name by equating feminism with an adherence to specific viewpoints that aren't held by all feminists. Many younger feminists in particular are insisting that there be litmus tests for feminism based on adherence to the goals of other movements that in some cases may be unrelated to women's rights.

 Many feminists also equate exhibitionism and self-promotion with feminism. People are entitled to engage in exhibitionism and self-promotion, but exhibitionism and self-promotion in and of themselves are not feminism, as they do not enhance women's rights although they may (or may not) enhance an individual's self-regard. I have noticed that Gen Y often confuses individual self-promotion with political movements.

Feminists do not have to dress a certain way. They do not have to use any particular jargon. They do not have to agree with the aims of movements other than the women's movement.

It's really quite simple. I'm sorry that so many people, particularly young people, seem to be confused about feminism, which is a very simple concept. 
"Ain't no burning hell."--John Lee Hooker

Moonlight

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Re: Feminism and Satanism
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2016, 06:20:37 PM »
Nice topic!
I can't understand why someone wouldn't be pro-feminism. Specially here, since i think that feminism is totally related to the 2nd tenet: "The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions". I'm curious to know the reasons of other points of view.

There are some discussion about if a man could really be 'feminist'. What do you think?

Alchemist16AD

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Re: Feminism and Satanism
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2016, 06:27:57 PM »
If the term feminism means:
Feminism is a range of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.
Feminism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then why can't a man be one? When one speakes of mankind they don't just mean men.
Forged from wisdom, crafted from knowledge, a product of intelligence, raised by ignorance and stupidly. -Myself .

samowens84

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Re: Feminism and Satanism
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2016, 11:28:24 PM »
I'm a man who considers himself a feminist. I've watched some so-called anti-feminist videos, and a common theme seems to be that they get the impression that all white cis gender men are intersection intersectionally sexist, racist and homophobic, and they blame this doctrine on the entire third wave feminist movement. I tried to look this up where some mainstream third waver would say this, but the closest type of feminist who I would imagine holding this view was separatist feminists, who I suppose to treat all men as inherently the enemy and do not even condone heterosexual relationships, and believe that a just society can only be done with a female society that excludes men. My guess is that some men read some radical feminist thinkers, and in particular separatist feminists, and resented being treated as the enemy for simply being born the wrong gender.

I'm aware that radical feminism does not represent the whole movement, but what I think happens in some cases is that some people have internalized some of the bad press given by conservative media, and then trolled some of the most extreme forms of feminism in order to validate artificial prejudice. Just my speculation

Wolfkiller

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Re: Feminism and Satanism
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2016, 12:16:13 AM »
"If you don't identify as one of us, you're a sexist pig!"
Cult nonsense. There are plenty of women who choose not to identify as feminists, are they sexist male chauvinists too?
And you admit feminism isn't about real equality, but is focused on giving women the same rights as men? Can you name any specific ways women aren't equal to men in the Western world?
I believe in equality. STILL NOT A FEMINIST. Trying to shove feminism down people's throats and calling them sexist to shut down objections, among many other reasons, is why so many people don't want to be associated with the label.

Lucidfer

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Re: Feminism and Satanism
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2016, 10:36:30 AM »
"If you don't identify as one of us, you're a sexist pig!"
Cult nonsense. There are plenty of women who choose not to identify as feminists, are they sexist male chauvinists too?
And you admit feminism isn't about real equality, but is focused on giving women the same rights as men? Can you name any specific ways women aren't equal to men in the Western world?
I believe in equality. STILL NOT A FEMINIST. Trying to shove feminism down people's throats and calling them sexist to shut down objections, among many other reasons, is why so many people don't want to be associated with the label.

Those woman are just suffering from internalized misogyny because they've been brainwashed by a hetronormative white supremacist patriarchal society! (am I using enough buzzwords to fit in yet?)


Really though, I agree it's extremely cult-like. There's beliefs--that even if proven wrong--they are not allowed to question and essentially have to believe, such as the wage gap myth or the 1 in 3/4/5 rape stats (their beliefs such as these spit in the face of the 5th tenet btw).

There's an extremely strong "us vs them" mentality with them too. Either you're with us you're a misogynist, as shown by the very first comment in this post. It's a silly thing to say but people believe this strongly. One of the biggest reasons I hate feminism is that they have this mindset and use good causes to shield themselves from criticism. Example:

Feminist: Feminism is about A, B, C, D & E

Me: Well A and E are great things but B, C, and D are horrible. I can't support a movement that takes those stances.

Feminist: OMFG YOU HATE WOMEN (A for the sake of argument) AND DON'T WANT THEM TO HAVE RIGHTS! YOU ARE THE ENEMY!!

Me: wut. o.o

I can't get behind this kind of thinking. At all.

The ideological aspect is too strong for my tastes as well. It's like a religion. When you put on ideological glasses and view the world through them which filters reality though your ideology, and that can lead to some scary shit. Take the Pray the Gay Away Christians, they do serious damage to people but they view the world through their ideological glasses which allows them to honestly think they are doing a good thing. It's fucking scary.

Then there's that free speech thing so many feminists hate. It's like they think banning words will make people with certain opinions not have those opinions anymore, or that shutting down and disrupting events will make people they don't like suddenly not exist. Personally I take the opposite stance in that I think everyone should be allowed to voice all their shitty opinions, that way they over time they can be debunked, mocked, and criticized into obscurity. I think the KKK is a good example of this. They were a powerhouse of terrorism in America, but we have free speech and the right to assemble, so they did their thing and over time they became a pathetic joke of a movement and that's a great thing. Religion in general has been on the decline too for the same reason. Free speech breeds progress by filtering good and bad ideas alike through time and public scrutiny.



I could go on a lot longer and more in depth but I feel I've ranted enough...in this comment.
I'm an anti-establishment, anti-feminist, anti-conservative/right, and anti-regressive/left satanist that believes only bad and stupid ideas want to be shielded from criticism.


Alex Black

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Re: Feminism and Satanism
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2016, 11:09:38 AM »
For example different feminists disagree on topics such as whether prostitution should be legalized, whether pornography is harmful to women and whether men who think they are women should be allowed to play on women's or girl's sports teams.

That's quite a way a mention trans exclusionary rad fems. Are you a TERF?

In my opinion, any kind of feminism which excludes some particular category of women, or that promotes the rights of one group of women at the expense of another, is a shitty kind of feminism. I think it's shitty in general when any one group promotes their own rights at the expense of another.

"If you don't identify as one of us, you're a sexist pig!"
Cult nonsense. There are plenty of women who choose not to identify as feminists, are they sexist male chauvinists too?
And you admit feminism isn't about real equality, but is focused on giving women the same rights as men? Can you name any specific ways women aren't equal to men in the Western world?
I believe in equality. STILL NOT A FEMINIST. Trying to shove feminism down people's throats and calling them sexist to shut down objections, among many other reasons, is why so many people don't want to be associated with the label.

I mostly agree with Wolfkiller, here. This "you're either with us or you're against us" rhetoric does more harm than good, especially since feminism has become such a loaded word. There are people who advocate for women's rights but refuse to use the word "feminist" to describe themselves. I am not one of these, but I'm not going to tell others they have to use a particular word to describe themselves.

When I say I am a feminist, I mean that I support equal rights for men and women. I mean it when I say that it's shitty to promote one group's rights at the expense of another, and that applies to promoting women's rights at the expense of men, too (e.g. talking about the issue of rape in a way which erases male survivors--focusing on the way the issue affects women is fine, acting like it only affects women is not). However, I use the word "feminist" to describe my support of equal rights for women and men because even in the western world today, women are still disadvantaged by sexism. An example would be the gender pay gap. While there are other variables affecting the pay gap aside from what can be explicitly attributed to sexism (e.g. women tending to be less assertive when negotiating salary), there are studies which suggest that sexism is still a factor. For instance, a study which looked at the earnings of binary trans people before and after transition found that trans women tend to make significantly less after transition, and trans men tend to make the same or slightly more.

See: http://www.econ.nyu.edu/user/wiswall/research/schilt_wiswall_transsexual.pdf

xenubarb

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Re: Feminism and Satanism
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2016, 04:09:53 PM »
"Feminism means a belief that women should have equal rights to men."

THIS! No dress code, no word code, no code of behavior. It is this and only this, nothing more.
I've had what I guess are "rabid feminists" tell me I'm not a feminist because no true scotsman.

"Feminism means a belief that women should have equal rights to men."
That's all it is. I do believe this, ergo I am a feminist. The end.

Lucidfer

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Re: Feminism and Satanism
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2016, 05:09:11 PM »
"Feminism means a belief that women should have equal rights to men."

THIS! No dress code, no word code, no code of behavior. It is this and only this, nothing more.
I've had what I guess are "rabid feminists" tell me I'm not a feminist because no true scotsman.

"Feminism means a belief that women should have equal rights to men."
That's all it is. I do believe this, ergo I am a feminist. The end.

Ideologies aren't that simple. You can't define an ideology with a single sentence. They evolve and change over time while developing various secs and beliefs. Saying "Feminism means a belief that women should have equal rights to men." is the equivalent of Muslims saying "Islam is a religion of peace.". Sure it might be true for you, and others, but it's not true of everyone. You can ask 50 feminists what feminism means and get 50 different answers...unless it's being criticized then they all seem to fall back on the dictionary definition.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 05:10:49 PM by Lucidfer »
I'm an anti-establishment, anti-feminist, anti-conservative/right, and anti-regressive/left satanist that believes only bad and stupid ideas want to be shielded from criticism.


Lilith201

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Re: Feminism and Satanism
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2016, 05:11:15 PM »
Thanks to those who gave intelligent replies, which was everyone except Wolfkiller and Lucidfer, who seem stuck in some type of rage that I don't quite understand. I guess some women did something bad to you at some point and you've been carrying a chip on your shoulder ever since. I don't care, as long as you don't take an AK-47 and go shoot up some place like so many other aggrieved men have done. I guess if trolling this forum helps keep you from shooting up crowds with an AK-47, troll away!
"Ain't no burning hell."--John Lee Hooker

Lilith201

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Re: Feminism and Satanism
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2016, 05:15:44 PM »
There are plenty of women who choose not to identify as feminists, are they sexist male chauvinists too?
And you admit feminism isn't about real equality, but is focused on giving women the same rights as men? Can you name any specific ways women aren't equal to men in the Western world?
I believe in equality. STILL NOT A FEMINIST. Trying to shove feminism down people's throats and calling them sexist to shut down objections, among many other reasons, is why so many people don't want to be associated with the label.

The answer to your first question is yes.
Your second sentence made no sense.
As for specific ways women aren't equal to men in the Western world, would you prefer the first dozen or the entire list? I don't think I have time to write the entire list actually.
I'm not sure if you believe in equality, but it's possible, in fact quite likely, you didn't even understand what I wrote, as your response is mostly gibberish.
"Ain't no burning hell."--John Lee Hooker

samowens84

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Re: Feminism and Satanism
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2016, 06:00:09 PM »
"Feminism means a belief that women should have equal rights to men."

THIS! No dress code, no word code, no code of behavior. It is this and only this, nothing more.
I've had what I guess are "rabid feminists" tell me I'm not a feminist because no true scotsman.

"Feminism means a belief that women should have equal rights to men."
That's all it is. I do believe this, ergo I am a feminist. The end.

Ideologies aren't that simple. You can't define an ideology with a single sentence. They evolve and change over time while developing various secs and beliefs. Saying "Feminism means a belief that women should have equal rights to men." is the equivalent of Muslims saying "Islam is a religion of peace.". Sure it might be true for you, and others, but it's not true of everyone. You can ask 50 feminists what feminism means and get 50 different answers...unless it's being criticized then they all seem to fall back on the dictionary definition.
Aha! You get it! Saying that feminism only means equality for women is like saying Islam is a religion of peace, both meaning that you can't treat either category as a monolithic group! And I'm a little confused. After you said when you ask 50 different feminists what feminism means to them and you get 50 different answers, which of the 50 definitions of feminism do you mean when you say "unless 'it' is criticized," or do you resent feminists for objecting being treated as a monolithic group?

Let's put this simply. You can't criticize feminist 1 for the views of feminist 50, as all they need to have in common to call themselves feminists is the dictionary definition. Even if you refute directly philosophy a of feminist one, you still haven't refuted feminism, because he/she still has philosophy b-z to fall back on represented by feminists 2-50. That is the point of citing the dictionary definition.

Iwill

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Re: Feminism and Satanism
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2016, 06:11:10 PM »
I like what you wrote. The problem for myself is not necessarily wanting to be lumped in with the "crazed zealots" of feminism that seem to be pouring out of social media and the universities. Which you did touch on. Unfortunately, I can imagine that would also shy a lot of people away from the true feminist cause due to the only example they know being the poorest, in my opinion.
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Lucidfer

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Re: Feminism and Satanism
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2016, 06:16:12 PM »
Thanks to those who gave intelligent replies, which was everyone except Wolfkiller and Lucidfer, who seem stuck in some type of rage that I don't quite understand. I guess some women did something bad to you at some point and you've been carrying a chip on your shoulder ever since. I don't care, as long as you don't take an AK-47 and go shoot up some place like so many other aggrieved men have done. I guess if trolling this forum helps keep you from shooting up crowds with an AK-47, troll away!

Translation: Wow people with a different opinion than me? They must be violent murderous trolls that are full of rage and have women issues!

This is why I can't support feminism. They produce people who think this way and they see absolutely nothing wrong with it. This is yet another example of a feminist "us vs them" mentality and how strong it is. I criticize an ideology and then have my character attacked while my arguments are ignored? That's an ad hominem. I'm not surprised or even upset though, this is what I've come to expect. This is what happens when feminists look at those critical of feminism through ideological goggles instead of using their own eyes. Talking to a feminist negatively about feminism goes about as well as talking to a Christian negatively about God - they have their belief and they don't care what you have to say because they're right, they know the truth, and they are righteous. I'm sorry but this kind of shit is a HUGE red flag to me.

Lilith201, while I do hate feminism I do not hate you. You, like many other feminists, are probably good people with your hearts in the right place, but you've been poisoned by an ideology in the same way that Christians have (and I don't hate all them either as most are good people too). You attacked me so let me tell you just a little bit about myself (feel free to ignore it if you want I really don't care):

I'm raising a little girl who is not my own, alone and by choice. I never cared about gender binary stuff, either forcing it or encouraging anything one way or another. I encourage whatever she likes which so far are sports, cars, and legos. She definitely has her feminine side, but god damn that girl is wild as hell and tough as nails. I try to avoid "princess" shit such as clothes and movies, she's just too strong for that and I don't want her growing up with that spoiled and entitled "I'm a princess kiss my ass!" attitude. The closest I'll get until she starts making her own decisions are movies with warrior or warrior-like women (maybe something like Brave or Mulan or a number of animes), and educational/fun shows like Curious George (currently her absolute favorite, which makes me happy because it's so science-positive). I do volunteer work at a church (they know I'm a satanist too, but they don't care. Actually this specific church has never tried to even convert me or even make me feel unwelcome, they just appreciate the extra help on Wednesdays when they feed the homeless because holy fuck there's a lot of them). Sometimes if I have extra money I'll donate to charities, the last one was actually to charity for girls in 3rd world countries.

I'm a dick, I'm not afraid to voice my opinion even if it's unpopular, but I also like to think, in general, I'm a good person. You're free to make whatever hateful assumptions about me you want though, but I just wanted to say that.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 08:26:53 PM by Lucidfer »
I'm an anti-establishment, anti-feminist, anti-conservative/right, and anti-regressive/left satanist that believes only bad and stupid ideas want to be shielded from criticism.


samowens84

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Re: Feminism and Satanism
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2016, 06:51:58 PM »
I like what you wrote. The problem for myself is not necessarily wanting to be lumped in with the "crazed zealots" of feminism that seem to be pouring out of social media and the universities. Which you did touch on. Unfortunately, I can imagine that would also shy a lot of people away from the true feminist cause due to the only example they know being the poorest, in my opinion.

Thank you! :) The solution to the radicals in feminism is not to exclude ourselves from the conversation by shunning the label, but by owning it and allowing us to take ownership of the label so as to be part of constructing a progressive form of feminism instead of leaving the conversation to the extremests, so as to forge an inclusive path forward.